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I'll just leave this here

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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I'll just leave this here

Postby mazater » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:50 am

In case somebody is bored and wants to do math, in a polite way, http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.htm ... 4439&sid=1

If you don't like to look at the official forums, it's a dodge vs agi argument where the OP basically claims everything Theck wrote in that post to be wrong.
Wether he is right or absolutely wrong, I don't know and I don't really even care since I haven't raided in weeks, probably won't 'till Cataclysm hits either.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 6:58 am

*prepares the pitchforks*
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Boyfriend » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:11 am

Why would I reply to an obvious troll?

I don't post on official forums out of principle, the signal to noise ratio there makes them unusable; and I have no interest in educating people posting there.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby kysu » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:51 am

Boyfriend wrote:Why would I reply to an obvious troll?

I don't post on official forums out of principle, the signal to noise ratio there makes them unusable; and I have no interest in educating people posting there.


^ that would be it.

Let them think what they want, for all I care they can gem for haste and stack spirit in their tanking gear, doesn't affect me. KNOW the second it affects me then you'll hear the bitchfest, until then they can gtfo.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:59 am

Actually, looking at their armory, they don't really have much experience in anything.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Soralin » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:58 am

In the content he's tanking he could be gemming mp5 and it wouldn't matter.

If i was gearing purely for avoidance I'd gem dodge because it gives more. But when we're talking about the one gem I require to activate my meta when stacking absolute maximum EH, I'll pick the red (purple) gem that best meets those needs and that's agi/stam.

Honestly after reading his original post I don't know why you bothered replying. He's clearly a troll who has no idea what he's talking about. If he did, he'd know who Theck was. *salute*
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby theckhd » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:15 am

I can't post on the EU forums anyway, but here's what my response would be:

Allene wrote:Where the hell is this guy getting these values from?

So the relevant conversions we want are:
10 Dodge Rating = 0.1258% Dodge
10 Agility = 0.1046% Dodge, 22 Armor, and 0.2112% crit


I really have to wonder whether this guy forgot to disregard base Agility / Dodge in whatever calculations led them into this conclusion, as these values are completely wrong, but even if these were right then they would highlight my claims regarding Defense Rating's effectiveness even better, as 10 Defense Rating gives 0.08130 Miss, Dodge, Parry, and Block, or 0.24390 pure avoidance plus 0.08130 Block on top of being a lot less affected by avoidance diminishing returns than Dodge or Agility.


The numbers were calculated from my armory, post-Diminishing Returns (DR). 10 Defense rating gives 0.08130% Miss/Dodge/Parry/Block before DR, but much less afterwards. For comparison, 10 Dodge rating gives 0.2210% avoidance before DR, while 10 Defense rating gives 0.2439% . But Miss and Parry have much steeper DR curves than Dodge does, which is why for most raiders a 10 dodge gem will actually give more raw avoidance than a 10 defense gem.

In addition, the question being addressed was purely "what's better to use in a red socket if I want to match it for a socket bonus." You would not be putting a Defense/Stam gem in a red socket for that purpose, so there's no reason I would consider it in the analysis. Defense obviously has some advantages in ICC thanks to the off-DR block contribution, which does make it more attractive at very high gear levels (once you have the EH to survive the boss's burst damage). But not enough to warrant gemming it in a red socket, or at all for most players.




Now, on to clarifying small points in your posts:
Allene wrote:It's not only for me, Defense Rating rewards EVERYONE with 3% pure avoidance plus 1% Block for ever 123 points, and it does this in a way that is far less affected by diminishing returns than any of the other avoidance stats

No, the avoidance contribution is affected very similarly by DR, if not more harshly. As you stack more of any one of the avoidance stats (def/dodge/parry), it gets less efficient and the others get more efficient. There's actually a quite detailed discussion of it here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p461809

Allene wrote:Because my original argument was that Agility was less effective than Dodge Rating and Defense Rating when it comes to avoidance (which is true) and then people started bringing up the Effective Health subject.

Agility will obviously always give less avoidance than Dodge, since every point of agility only acts as 0.84 points of dodge rating. The point being made in that article is that for total damage reduction, you also have to consider the armor contribution of agility. After all things are considered, the agi/stam gem will reduce your incoming Damage Taken Per Second (DTPS) by slightly more than the dodge/stam gem until you reach very high armor levels. And it has the benefit of providing EH in the form of armor, which is an incredibly powerful stat in end-game tanking.

Allene wrote:If a lot of mobs are hitting, it's bound to be up all the time.

True, but this is not usually the case for raid boss tanking. In general, Redoubt's uptime on raid bosses is pretty abysmal, and aiming for 102.4% isn't the best gearing path for survival.

Allene wrote:Strength is Red and works very well with Defense Rating on top of adding to your threat and not contributing to any diminishing returns.

Strength is a threat stat, the block value contribution will do very little for your survival. Almost no end-game tank has to gem for threat right now. So gemming STR for progression boss tanking is really not a smart decision. Save that for your "prot DPS" or heroic clearing gear set.
Allene wrote:If you want avoidance, stack Defense Rating as it's A LOT MORE EFFECTIVE than Agility;

This is untrue, as I've already shown in the link I gave above. Defense Rating is about as good as Dodge rating for avoidance, both of which will always be a little ahead of Agility.

Allene wrote:if you want mitigation, stack Strength and aim at getting unhittable with the 20% dodge debuff.

Again, this isn't true. Agility will give you much more net damage reduction than Strength. The mitigation from STR may slightly outperform the armor contribution to damage reduction, but the avoidance component of agility makes it the better choice for survivability. Reaching unhittable with the 20% dodge debuff isn't a recommended course of action for an end-game tank in ICC. The extra blocked damage just doesn't make up for the amount of effort it takes to get there, at least compared to other options (primarily armor or EH).

Allene wrote:There's absolutely no reason to aim for Agility or Dodge on red sockets.

There's arguably more reason to aim for agi/stam or dodge/stam in a red socket than def/stam or pure defense. You won't pick up socket bonuses with a def/stam gem. Def/dodge would be an option, but given the power of stam in ICC, few tanks will want to go this route until the health buff gets a lot larger.


Allene wrote:The article that you referred talks about effective health as being more than just the amount of unmitigated damage required to kill the tank, it uses avoidance to calculate effective health too (I prefer to call that time to live), and in that context Defense Rating and Strength are better in every possible aspect, because while they don't provide armor they provide block, block value, and pure avoidance with less diminishing returns, all things that affect time to live.

First of all, note that I never used avoidance in an EH calculation. I calculated average incoming DTPS due to armor and avoidance. That's a very different concept, and different still than Time To Live (though close, depending on how you define it).

Defense Rating is a little better in that context due to the block it gives, but not enough to make it worth gemming in non-yellow sockets. It's arguable whether it make sense even in a yellow socket until very high gear levels (i.e. nearly full 277).

Strength is actually quite weak in this context, simply because the block value gains are very small and can't be applied reliably to every hit.

Allene wrote:Also, as weak as Block might be against 30k hits, it's still a lot stronger than all the armor contributions that you could ever get from Agility gems. If you block 3k, that's 10% less damage you take, therefore I see absolutely no reason to not improve that along with adding extra avoidance if the goal is to take less overall damage.

3k is a bit high for an end-game geared tank. Probably ~2k is a more realistic value. And again, you're only getting that effect on some of the unavoided attacks you take, whereas you get the armor reduction on every attack.

I don't know that I've ever actually run the numbers on whether the block from 10 defense rating is a larger DTPS reduction than the armor from 10 Agility, but it's an interesting question which should be fairly easy to answer if I find time.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:34 am

Do you want me to post if for you? I've never posted on the official forums before, but I'm sure I can manage it. lol
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby bldavis » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:34 am

Nikachelle wrote:Do you want me to post if for you? I've never posted on the official forums before, but I'm sure I can manage it. lol


do you really want to start another James vs Theckd shwodown?
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:38 am

bldavis wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Do you want me to post if for you? I've never posted on the official forums before, but I'm sure I can manage it. lol


do you really want to start another James vs Theckd shwodown?

Theck went to the effort of quoting everything and giving solid reason. If he wants it posted, I will. If he doesn't, then that's that. Few people go to all that work just to be NOT read.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby bldavis » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:40 am

Nikachelle wrote:
bldavis wrote:
Nikachelle wrote:Do you want me to post if for you? I've never posted on the official forums before, but I'm sure I can manage it. lol


do you really want to start another James vs Theckd shwodown?

Theck went to the effort of quoting everything and giving solid reason. If he wants it posted, I will. If he doesn't, then that's that. Few people go to all that work just to be NOT read.

ok ok you got me there..

oh and theck, very nice write-up

(note to self, dont be an ass to a mod's gf)
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:43 am

Post and link it.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:46 am

Fridmarr wrote:Post and link it.

I'm trying. I've never been on the official forums and it's asking me to login with my battle.net account, and yet when I click the link, it goes nowhere.
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Re: I'll just leave this here

Postby Nikachelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:49 am

Okay finally got through. Will format Theck's post and link it here. Give me a few minutes.
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