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Okay WTF is Prince's problem?

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Postby inthedrops » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:29 am

Regardless of what the tank might have done differently, the death was the fault of the healers. I've never tanked prince but I've healed on my paladin plenty of times. Phase 2 is what it is, healers hate the idea of wasting mana but they need to get over it and suck some mana pots.
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Postby Yeti » Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:59 am

Invisusira wrote:There is no reason NOT to engage him. None.

Like I said before, you will not wipe because of a parry, even two or three. If you do wipe when he parrys, you would have wiped anyway.

By keeping him enganged, you are keeping your mana and threat topped off, allowing for maximum dps. Your DPS IS being forced to hold back if you are just standing there. No question about it.

If and when someone passes you, even for a second, you can wipe the raid by getting enfeebled. That is FAR more risky than any parry will ever be.

So! There you have it.



If your dps is holding back while you tank a demon, you are a lousy paladin tank.

Even if your group's uber dps is forced to drop threat through abilities or hold back slightly, this is not going to cause a wipe. Dying to spike damage is obviously a worse outcome.

If your MT can withstand the bursts and your healers are experienced, you probably do not need to disengage. This is not the case for groups new to the fight or whose gear is a work in progress.

To say that the disengage method doesn't help certain groups to beat Prince is just stupid.


...
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Postby Everlight » Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:57 pm

Yeti wrote:If your dps is holding back while you tank a demon, you are a lousy paladin tank.


Nice ad hominem argument.

The other option is you have DPS classes that can actually DPS. Also, in Phase 2 I don't want my DPS classes to waste time blowing their threat reduction abilities (eg, Invisibility). I want them laying waste to the Prince.

While we're on the topic, I put out ~1.3k tps in Phase 2 (without AW). A significant percentage of that is Seal of Righteousness, white, and Judgement threat.

To be a lot more specific, here's last week's (not this week, I was using my 2-piece T4 bonus this week, so the proportions would be different) Prince kill, and the damage/threat dealt by me;

Holy Shield - 19678 dmg - 50474 threat
Melee - 18573 dmg - 18573 threat
Seal of Righteousness - 17808 dmg - 33835 threat
Judgement of Righteousness - 11758 dmg - 22340 threat
Consecration - 9917 dmg - 18842 threat
Exorcism - 8452 dmg - 16058 threat
Vengeance - 2103 dmg - 3996 threat
Reflect - 2067 dmg - 2067 threat
Spiritual Attunement - 35175 mana - 17587 threat
Judgement of Wisdom - 5994 mana - 2997 threat
Super Mana Potion - 3892 mana - 1946 threat


Overall notice that the melee-related threat (melee, SoR, JoR, JoW) comprised ~41% of overall threat. That is most definitely not trivial.

Admittedly, I tend to use Judgement a lot more heavily than Exorcism on account of Exorcism's freaking awful mana efficiency, and the fact that I tend to run on fumes with Prince anyway (note that I actually drank two super mana pots during the fight).

However, the point remains - melee swings are a much bigger portion of overall threat generation than most Paladins think.
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Postby Invisusira » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:00 pm

Yeti wrote:If your dps is holding back while you tank a demon, you are a lousy paladin tank.

Even if your group's uber dps is forced to drop threat through abilities or hold back slightly, this is not going to cause a wipe. Dying to spike damage is obviously a worse outcome.

If your MT can withstand the bursts and your healers are experienced, you probably do not need to disengage. This is not the case for groups new to the fight or whose gear is a work in progress.

To say that the disengage method doesn't help certain groups to beat Prince is just stupid.


...

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. The above post covers most of the points nicely, I'd just end up making you crawl up in the corner and cry if I said anything more.
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Postby Yeti » Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:56 pm

Everlight wrote:
Yeti wrote:If your dps is holding back while you tank a demon, you are a lousy paladin tank.


Nice ad hominem argument.


I'll admit my "lousy" comment was a flip remark. The sarcasm was meant to convey that because he is a demon, this strategy can work for a Paladin tank because of Exorcism.


Everlight wrote:
Holy Shield - 19678 dmg - 50474 threat
Melee - 18573 dmg - 18573 threat
Seal of Righteousness - 17808 dmg - 33835 threat
Judgement of Righteousness - 11758 dmg - 22340 threat
Consecration - 9917 dmg - 18842 threat
Exorcism - 8452 dmg - 16058 threat
Vengeance - 2103 dmg - 3996 threat
Reflect - 2067 dmg - 2067 threat
Spiritual Attunement - 35175 mana - 17587 threat
Judgement of Wisdom - 5994 mana - 2997 threat
Super Mana Potion - 3892 mana - 1946 threat


Overall notice that the melee-related threat (melee, SoR, JoR, JoW) comprised ~41% of overall threat. That is most definitely not trivial.


When you "disengage", you continue to Judge Righteousness. You don't just stand there. By my math, that brings the 41% down to 29%. Still not trivial, but this is still not enough to utterly refute the disengagement strategy for all situations.

It just means your threat generation rate is lower during 1/3 of the fight. You trade some threat (and maybe dps) for survivability.

Invisusira's blanket statements that this strategy should never be used doesn't make sense when there are groups who fail in Phase 2 due to spike damage on the MT. I guess the others who reported a benefit in survivability are as deluded as I am.

Invisusira, I will never cry from a forum post on tanking a giant demon in a make-believe game. If I offended you with the "stupid" remark, then I apologize.


Yeti

Edit: One more thing, I use the disengagement technique. I am far from an uber-geared tank, and I have never had a problem with threat in Phase 2 due to the huge lead I build up in Phase 1. Maybe my dps are slackers. I don't really care, since we 1-shot him every week.
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:26 pm

Invis, you need to calm down. If you're forcing your DPS to hold back then you shouldn't be disengaging, that's true....but I never found Prince to be a threat capped fight, even during progression. I regularly switched to my Sun Eater during Phase 2 for the extra avoidance, dropping my threat considerably. Given this, I think disengagement is a perfectly reasonable strategy to try. If DPS is getting threat-capped then re-engage, but I really don't see that being a problem much of the time.

Regardless, simply repeating "DON'T DO IT" without trying it or providing data to back it up is simply inappropriate here...the strategy forums are intended to be a safe place for people to toss out ideas and get constructive, objective feedback.
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Postby Fearonir » Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:52 pm

IMO. If you're having a lot of parry thrashes to begin with, make sure your melee dps aren't causing them and are dps'ing from behind.

I won't lie, in the beginning I disengaged Prince and my healers loved it. Now though with my gear like it is I just tank him and we WTFPwn him AFAP.
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Postby xyzor » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:08 pm

It really depends on the specific issues your group is having...if you are losing your tank from thrashes in P2, try the disengage technique, if you find you are taking too long and seeing extra infernals, or P2 is lasting too long (ie, you are dying at the end of P2 and not at the start or midpoint), stay engaged for extra DPS. I know that during our progression kills, I could pretty much log off and the DPS still wouldn't catch me before P3 started (and no, our DPS doesn't suck, it is just so easy to put out a lot of threat on Prince). I also blow my wings at the start of P2 for extra threat/dmg.

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to do it...try a few methods and go with what works for you. We disengaged after our first night of wipes and have pretty much 1-shotted him every week since (except for a few bad infernal attempts). Other tanks I;ve talked to have never disengaged and do fine as well.
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Postby Invisusira » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:10 pm

Dorvan wrote:Invis, you need to calm down. If you're forcing your DPS to hold back then you shouldn't be disengaging, that's true....but I never found Prince to be a threat capped fight, even during progression. I regularly switched to my Sun Eater during Phase 2 for the extra avoidance, dropping my threat considerably. Given this, I think disengagement is a perfectly reasonable strategy to try. If DPS is getting threat-capped then re-engage, but I really don't see that being a problem much of the time.

Regardless, simply repeating "DON'T DO IT" without trying it or providing data to back it up is simply inappropriate here...the strategy forums are intended to be a safe place for people to toss out ideas and get constructive, objective feedback.

I'm just frustrated with the amount of hostility (Yeti's retarded post, for example) that my prefered strategy is being met with. Perhaps many of your other guilds have DPS that is just not up to the level of my guild. I don't know. I just find it sad that so many people have chosen this as their way to do prince - jumping on the disengage bandwagon.

I've provided as much data as I can. I would very much like to see some number data on this - because I'm very, very confident that the number of times you see prince parrying and then the tank taking a significant damage spike will be slim to none. More likely than not, people try doing the fight the regular way, then after they've had a few attempts try disengaging. Then, when they succeed, they chalk it up to the disengagement... when it's probably just the fact that the party, the healers, and the tank have been practicing the fight and getting better at it.

I personally haven't been to Prince in months, nor do I run any sort of stat-logging mods. If someone could supply this data, I'd love to see it!!
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Postby Dorvan » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:20 pm

Foolish way to handle it.


There is no reason NOT to engage him. None.


The above post covers most of the points nicely, I'd just end up making you crawl up in the corner and cry if I said anything more.


Yeti's retarded post, for example


You contributed more than your share of hostility to the thread, including firing the opening volley (it may have been intended as sarcastic, but given the follow up it didn't come off the way). I don't think anyone's trashed the idea that engaging prince can work, they're simply reacting against your refusal to consider disengagement as a legitimate strategy. If you have a problem with someone's tone on the boards, let a moderator handle it, don't fire back. Yes, you and I did it the old-fashioned way and it worked fine, but the game changes and people come up with new ideas.

This one seems theoretically sound given the the fight isn't threat-capped and people have in practice found that it works well, so I don't see any reason to knock it.

At any rate, let's move past this and continue to discuss the merits so I don't have to go around deleting posts or locking threads 8)
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Postby Yeti » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:01 pm

Dorvan, I agree. We don't need to hijack the thread any longer.

Invis, my initial post was made in haste and was perhaps an over-reaction to your posts, which were, in my opinion, an attempt to shut down the flow of ideas and suggestions. I'm sure you did not mean it as such.

Let's agree to disagree. And as I did before, I offer apologies if I offended you.

Yeti
Last edited by Yeti on Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shakkra » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:42 am

Given my group makeup for Kara, disengaging is the safer way.

Threat? Dont tell me my dps is holding back as long as Im at least 10% ahead.

Doing the full threat cycle, I find myself in AD range every few seconds, and I just cant see the benefit of being 50% ahead of number two on the threat meter.

Mana isnt an issue either, thanks to constant damage of hellfires.

Maybe this will change when my dps is better geared, but then I will be too, and the flurries will be less dangerous anyway.

It just depends on your group and gear. "Do it your way" - as long as it works.
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Postby Lakirby » Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:50 am

There was no way I could get away with disengaging last night, given my extremely caster-heavy group (2 aggro-whoring shadow priests and a crit-heavy elemental shaman...). And given that I'm still specced 5/5 Reckoning, phase 2 involved large quantities of invoking the name of the Flying Spaghetti Monster....

But he died, 3rd shot - first two times he decided that my head was Chief Infernal Target #1.

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Postby Korath » Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:10 am

Our main aggro people are Mages, Locks and Hunters. All 3 of them I tell to do your aggro dump @ 62% (Invis, Soulshatter, Feign Death) and then go all out again to get through phase 2 ASAP.

Our ele shammys are both very well geared but know how to manage aggro. If their aggro reachs 95% they just stop and wait abit getting some mana back. Shadow priests get salvation and dont seem to get close (maybe becuase his gear isnt upto stratch)

I do quick final exocism, cons, judge at 61% and then switch to suneater and disengage. Hit ironsheild pot, judge when wisdom needs refreshing, hit exorism and cons whenever availble (without GCD messing with holy sheild) and then switch back to spell dmg sword, wings, exo, cons etc at phase 3 :)
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Postby lusisia » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:49 am

Well I didn't mean to start a flame fest. I appreciate advice from everyone. It looks like there are valid reasons TO disengage as well as not.

Let me clarify about my group make up:

Healers: slighty undergeared priest, feral druid, undergeared holy pally. As others have said, the healers really were the issue at this point.
DPS: All partially SSC/TK geared. Ranged heavy (including 2 boomkins)
Tank: Me! (feral druid off-tanked when needed)

I didn't TELL anyone I was disengaging during P2. After the first wipe, I asked the dps if they felt like they were holding back and they said they weren't. During P2 I was 10k ahead of the next person on Omen.

Now the reason I disengaged was because I was concerned about my healers. I know I should trust them but honestly I knew they were undergeared and the priest was getting tired.

I don't feel like there were threat problems and if I can hold threat against that group wihtout even swinging with a seal, then it seems to me it made sense. Had the DPS told me they were having to hold back, I would have totally engaged.

So in the case of my specific experience, the problems were not whether the DPS was burning down fast enough or bad infernal placements or me being engaged or not. It was simply a matter of not enough healing.

I'll be honest. The first time we do an all guild run, I'll probably disengage as well.

So I guess what it boils down to is this:
1) My sealed melee DOES contribute to the overall DPS during the fight. If the healers are up to it and if my stats are up to it, there's really not a reason to disengage and instead burn him down as quick as possible.
2) If the healers are questionable or having issues healing through the parry haste damage (if that's even possible to heal through) then maybe it makes sense to disengage.

I think people are going to be pretty fixed in what they decide to do. It's possible that people are going to go in balls to the wall and get burst down because prince parried a swing. The next run they might try to disengage and they'll make it through. As Invis said, this could be because they've learned the fight better. In my case, after three tries, the healers still hadn't picked up on it. It wasn't until we investigated afterwards that we really saw the problem.
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