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How can I get started as Holy Paladin in 2v2 arena w. rogue?

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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How can I get started as Holy Paladin in 2v2 arena w. rogue?

Postby econ21 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:44 am

Can anyone help me get a win as a Holy Paladin in 2v2 arena? I've been trying non-rated practice games with my son who has a rogue and we are getting massacred. 20 or so matches - no victories. We are both totally new to arena, so any basic tips - including links to resources - would be appreciated. I've looked at arena junkies, but the signal to noise ratio is rather low and what information there is seems geared to more accomplished players.

I think I am ok with gear and spec. I have the best pre-arena PvP Holy gear I can get, 890 resilience, fully enchanted and with epic sp (and mixed sp) gems, and have copied the spec of Athlete, an arena winning Holy Pally recently featured on WoW insider. My son's rogue is not so well geared yet, but we can fix that if there is a light at the end of the tunnel (just one win would help motivation...!).

The problem is more with basic tactics. How should we fight? Who should open the fight - me or the rogue? Who should we try to kill - the enemy healer or dps? Should I be just healing or also dpsing? Who should I sacred shield? What tends to happen is that within a minute or two my son gets burst down and both the enemies are left pretty much intact. Such quick defeats are embarassing, having read that holy paladins are great in arena and that 2v2 matches are endurance fights. I suspect the problem is largely with me, as being a tank, I am pretty inexperienced as a healer. I do use healbot and beacon myself, but can't seem to keep my partner alive.

More generally, what should we expect if we switch to rated matches compared to practice ones? I thought practice ones might include newbies like ourselves, but our opponents seem pretty good players. (We meet many combinations, but they almost always include a healer.) I've started wondering if we should do rated matches in the hope of meeting more evenly matched opponents. But at this stage of the Wotlk, I rather fear that even low rated arena teams might be individual arena veterans who are just new to their particular party. At this stage, I don't really care about a rating - just getting a win or two would be great progress.

Thanks for any advice!
Last edited by econ21 on Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How can I get started as Holy Paladin in 2v2 arena w. rogue?

Postby Shoju » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:34 am

I'm not a very accomplished arena player, but I did some 3's as holy with a hunter and rogue.

I always SS'd the rogue, and made sure that beacon was on the rogue. Then, I could just heal myself to heal him as well. The name of the game a lot of times is dispels, timing your stun, making sure that you have HoP ready when you need it.

Very rarely did I find myself DPSing, though I could see in a 2's needing to do some DPS maybe... What spec is your son? If I were going to try 2's with a rogue, I would try to CC the DPS, and burn the healer. This could be a case by case basis.

Another thing that will help is to go ahead and start playing rated games. At this point in practice, you are going to get a little of everything. Go ahead and get going on rated games, and you will soon be facing people with less skill/gear, and it will give you a chance to get a grasp on things.

Are you guys in the same room? Do you have voice? Communication is the key to being successful.
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Re: How can I get started as Holy Paladin in 2v2 arena w. rogue?

Postby Joanadark » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:48 am

To be perfectly honest, holy paladin-rogue isn't the best comp in the world, but you can definitely pull some wins out there and make some progress. Things aren't hopeless.

I'm actually about to run off to a meeting, but I'll edit this in a little bit with all the advice I can offer.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Re: How can I get started as Holy Paladin in 2v2 arena w. rogue?

Postby Brute » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:44 am

I arena'ed until they killed Proly w/ the TBTL nerf/change, so its been a while, and I was teamed w/ a DK, but I'll do what I can...

You should start doing rated matches now. IIRC you don't get points for just doing practice matches, and you will (hopefully) need the points soon to buy more gear. Also, you may well be running into very highly rated teams that are warming up and don't want to trash their rating by jumping into rated matches when they haven't played any that day. If you play rated matches, you will begin by fighting other low low ranked people, which will basically consist of people on a new team (so you could possibly get slaughtered anyway) or people with bad gear who are bad. Either way, its better than doing practice matches. You will get points as if you are rated 1500 from a rating of 0 all the way to 1500.

Now onto some fight advice:

Your job in the arena is as follows:
1) Keep the rogue healed.
2) Keep the rogue mobile.
3) Don't let the rogue die.
4) Finish of a wounded opponent.

You will only attack if you honestly believe with all your heart that your rogue will not be killed in the GCD's it takes to fire off a DF*HS+HoW (that's a divine favored holy shock followed by a hammer of wrath), and if the opponent is low.

Their first kill target will depend on their comp, but if you're finding it's generally the rogue, then he should be your SS target. Remember your defensive cooldowns like Hand of Sacrifice, DG+DS, Bubble, etc, used to survive opponent's burst damage, and Hand of Protection if you really need to. Using Hand of Sacrifice at the right moment will help you survive a Hunter/Shammy's burst, afterwhich they will be much easier to deal with. Make sure your Rogue knows when and why to use his defensive cooldowns/trinket as well, since they have a lot of stuff like COS, Vanish, Sprint, etc to survive bursts and get to safety.

The feel I get from a Pally/Rogue team is that you're not a frontal assault team like a Ret Pally/Arms Warrior; you're more of a tactical team and you have to play smart and look for openings to strike hard and fast.

For healer/DPS teams, your winning will depend on coordinating a strike on their healer when he gets low. Wear him out by keeping the Rogue on him constantly, and help out with a stun at 20% and do a DS*Shock+hammer to help finish him off. If he survives that burst and gets a NS+HT off (druid) then you will probably be in for a few more minutes of chasing him around. Some Healer+DPS mirror matches can go on forever.

Against the 2xDPS teams the name of the game is surviving their burst and then wearing them down. Without a healer, they're depending on nuking one of you fast. Be ready to use defensive cooldowns early because usually they will use offensive cooldowns early. If you manage to survive their early CC/burst, they will probably die to your counterattack. matches against teams like that are usually short, resulting in one side or the other getting their butt handed to them on a platter.

Without looking at your gear, I can tell you that you need to have all the stun/fear reducing meta/talents you can get, as on a team like mage/lock, your rogue will probably die when you're feared, after you trinketed out of the sheep. The more you can reduce your susceptibility to CC, the better, even at the cost of healing power. I mean, you can top him off in three FOL's tops, but if you're running around like an idiot then you can't heal at all.
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Re: How can I get started as Holy Paladin in 2v2 arena w. rogue?

Postby Joanadark » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:10 pm

Ok, here goes. This will prolly be a bit rambling, so bear with me.

One of the easiest mistakes to make as a beginning PvPer is to forget that you are fighting actual people. Particularly at lower gear levels, you aren't going to do yourself any favors by just running in, standing next to an arbitrary target, and doing a damage rotation on it until either he falls over, or you do.
Take a second to watch these short youtube videos of high rated PvPers in action. Pay close attention to how they move. Specifically:
-the way they use terrain to help each other
-the way they use terrain to interfere with their opponents
-the way they stay aware of their range and keep distance from opponents that might interfere with what they are doing
-how close attention they pay to their LOS with their healer/healing target while still staying as a moving target themselves

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqlYE8KGTJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEYb-WV22ns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpiLKvCZwnQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5vLg0q1dtk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0aWWxt5-mE

I picked several TBC arena videos to help illustrate the point I'm making about movement, because good footwork was more noticeable in TBC because of the relatively low damage output compared to player health.

Rogues can't tank being focused very well, so you will have to pay more attention to control than simply heal-spamming. You'll notice that the holy paladin in the first video spends very little of the match actually standing there casting heals. Instead he's moving around cleansing and using hand spells and HoJing and making a nuisance of himself.
Your comp is going to depend pretty heavily on the rogue's good play in order to secure a kill, and the more practice your son gets at controlling his targets the better. The last two videos I linked are mainly for his benefit, to see examples of what I'm talking about.

So I guess what this all boils down to is, learn how to be good at running away! 2s with a healer+DPS is all about how good you are at running away.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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