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First time tanking .. need some advice

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First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Fath » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:01 am

Hi guys.

I just made my pally who i stopped playing awhile ago a tank and so far im loving it..
just going thru heroics and getting some pieces that i couldnt craft. My main was a dk dps
but i always wanted to tank with a pally but was nervous too. SO after getting my crafted
gear and getting some drops i started to tank the other day. Everything goes well until
forge of souls where the first few mobs are all casters and spread out and i thought i did
alright but it was really tough getting them all .. how do u do it ?

Also i had a hell of a time even reaching 535 defense and i had to gem alot for it.. can you guys
take a look at my armory and give me some advice ? thanks

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&cn=Fath
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Gamingdevil » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:09 am

At your gear level, you shouldn't be wearing the Pillar's of Might, that's where your defense problem is coming from. If you wear something else over those, you can drop almost all your defense gems.

I highly suggest getting your professions up, it will give you a big boost as well.
If it is weak, kill it before it gets stronger. If it is strong, weaken it.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Fath » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:12 am

so should i just get the badge t9 legs and gloves ?
yea i know this character never had professions .. my dk has both bs and jc maxed
gonna powerlevel em on my pally now
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Gamingdevil » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:31 am

Fath wrote:so should i just get the badge t9 legs and gloves ?
yea i know this character never had professions .. my dk has both bs and jc maxed
gonna powerlevel em on my pally now


That would be a good start yes.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Fath » Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:40 am

well got the t9 legs and i dropped a few of those defense gems and im at 544 .. thanks .. gloves next then getting the helm of the honorbound .. thanks so much

how about dealing with those mobs in forge of souls .. and any other gear things i should swap out ?
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Gamingdevil » Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:20 pm

Fath wrote:well got the t9 legs and i dropped a few of those defense gems and im at 544 .. thanks .. gloves next then getting the helm of the honorbound .. thanks so much

how about dealing with those mobs in forge of souls .. and any other gear things i should swap out ?


That's not really about your gear. Try to hit one of the casters with your Avenger's Shield and position the mobs on the other caster. That lets you at least handle those and if you're lucky, the one you silenced will get close enough to get hit by your consecration/HotR/SoC.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby econ21 » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:21 pm

There have been a number of threads about the FoS (and PoS) trash pulls, for example:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

Gamingdevil makes the key point IMO - using avenger shield to bring towards you the caster that is outside of your AOE. The mobs are all undead, IIRC, so Holy Wrath is a great early opening move to stun the mobs and get most of them aggro'd on you. I tend to charge in with Hand of Reckoning, Holy Wrath, consecrate, HotR and then use AS to pick up the loose caster.

On the gear issue, if you have pillars of might, I would not be so quick to ditch them to get defence. I would switch your cloak and perhaps even your boots (both of which also lack defence) before I dropped such great legs. However, for heroic PUGs, I tend to run with the T9 as the 2pc bonus is very nice - especially for chaotic pulls like FoS and even more HoR.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Fath » Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:28 pm

econ21 wrote:There have been a number of threads about the FoS (and PoS) trash pulls, for example:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... =viewtopic

Gamingdevil makes the key point IMO - using avenger shield to bring towards you the caster that is outside of your AOE. The mobs are all undead, IIRC, so Holy Wrath is a great early opening move to stun the mobs and get most of them aggro'd on you. I tend to charge in with Hand of Reckoning, Holy Wrath, consecrate, HotR and then use AS to pick up the loose caster.

On the gear issue, if you have pillars of might, I would not be so quick to ditch them to get defence. I would switch your cloak and perhaps even your boots (both of which also lack defence) before I dropped such great legs. However, for heroic PUGs, I tend to run with the T9 as the 2pc bonus is very nice - especially for chaotic pulls like FoS and even more HoR.


thanks i never thought of holy wrath .. ill give it a shot even though im kinda nervous about going there..
the cloak and shield im looking to get on normal halls of reflection but i still need to finish the quest line
by first doing the forge of souls .. oh yah also the axe from hHor

i have the pillars of might still but im not going to use them until i pick up some better gear .. because basically
all my gems were pretty much defense rating and just by switching the legs i was able to drop pretty much all of them
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby econ21 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:19 am

Fath wrote:thanks i never thought of holy wrath ...


I confess I still find PoS and HoR rather challenging but Holy Wrath is fantastic in the ICC 5 mans. I shudder to think how non-pally tanks cope with them without it.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Mozen » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:55 pm

Well, besides not having a group stun (which warriors actually have), meaning you have a large damage spike at the beginning of the pull, I think the only tank that's in a worse position is the bear tank.

I've seen warriors Heroic Throw one, charge into another and shield slam or bash to interrupt it, then drag the whole lot to the third and Shock Wave. It ends up better than paladin tanks. The five-pulls are the hard ones, the four-pulls without the ghost will always congregate around you so that's no problem for any tank.

I've had one instance, though, when a melee DPS got far ahead of me and aggroed the first five-pull in FoS. He ducked back and I threw RD on him. I was out of range for all of the mobs, so they funneled into me and I only had to use AS on the furthest one, the rest were grouped up nice and tight for me. It was like a LOS pull.

Code: Select all
A     B
   C
D     E


       F

Since then I've had some success by starting the pull from F using HoRec on E, then run towards E. By the time I reach E, A would have moved a little down, and AS on D would often hit A+D, silencing them and bringing them close enough for HotR. B is the skeletal mage that always come into melee range before casting anyway. Then I just shift a little to the left side of E and everything's within cleave range.

The pull isn't that hard really, what's hard is well-geared DPS unleashing on the mobs even before you group them up. Then it's just nightmare, especially if you're not as well geared. For tanking regular FoS with half 200/219 and even some blues, I had no trouble holding everything even if the mobs were a little spread out and I had to run around building threat on each one in turn. But in heroics, that's just not possible with geared damage dealers.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Fath » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:38 pm

thanks alot for that it will help alot
yes my problem is my gs is around 4800 and i have dps in the 5500+ range
and its extremely hard to keep aggro when say a dk drops d&d right away
before i can even grab them or a rogue doing their aoe and so on ..
its just frustrating because i really enjoy tanking but when im in groups with
higher geared dps people leave because i cant grab aggro
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby econ21 » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:46 am

Fath wrote:yes my problem is my gs is around 4800 and i have dps in the 5500+ range


Don't feel inferior - your gear is absolutely fine for these heroics. I think aggro problems are more likely to do with player skill than gear.

and its extremely hard to keep aggro when say a dk drops d&d right away before i can even grab them or a rogue doing their aoe and so on ..


I think this may be the dps not playing smart rather than them outgearing you. Dropping aoe at the start of an ICC 5 man caster trash pull is just asking for trouble. If such skilled players quit on you, as the French say, quel dommage. It's not like you will have to wait long for fresh dps. They should know to give you a few seconds (I always ask everyone for that for the tough post Ick pulls in PoS.)

Do you skull a target? I use the add-on rapid mob marker or some such to quickly skull a target - I think it helps keep the less attentive dps focused on the one you initially pull, giving you more time to round up the rest. They may pull the skull off you while you are chasing the others, but it is no big deal as by focusing fire, they will tend to kill it quick and AFAIK your taunt should have bought you a little time.

I tend not to worry too much about mobs aggroing on dps - it's when they go on the healer, I think I have not done my job. Good dps can often tank and kill individual heroic trash they aggro. Worse case, they get a rez and a repair bill. Letting the healer get pounded is less forgivable and more dangerous to the group.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:10 am

First a generic comment: it's perfectly normal for dps to have aggro for a couple of seconds in heroics; even if I'm in my threat gear and easily outdps any dps in the instance it happens that a dps is hitting something I've only touched with consecration, and they'll get aggro. I've never seen a dps complaining about this, you can prevent this by marking skulls but honestly what do dps care about getting aggro if they don't die from it.

Ofcourse if dps get aggro and keep it for more than a 3 seconds, something is wrong. You have taunts you can use, don't forget to hammer the mob after taunting it so you don't lose it right away again. If you run into the issue of losing another mob by doing this you'll probably have to consider marking skull, but in my case usually the pack is dead well before a dps can pull off me again. (pulling off me is mostly an instance of hitting a mob that I'm not hitting in a 6+ mob double pack pull)

If a dpser is well geared and pulls aggro off you on trash, unless your healer is wholly incapable that should be a nonissue; if I can tank heroics in ret spec/gear then I'm pretty sure that dps with 30k hp can tank that trash mob for a bit. As long as most mobs in a pack are on you and bosses are on you, a healer should have no issues.

If death and decay is a huge issue, just drop a consecration, then RD the DK with 3 mobs, get them all back and watch how you now tank them safely.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Mozen » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:30 am

The only situation where a DPS DK should drop DnD at the start of a pull, is if the tank and the rest of the group severely over-gear the content. That is when IT-PS-Pest-DnD won't work because by the time DnD is dropped, the mobs are all dead. That's when the rotation becomes DnD-IT-PS-Pest, or more likely, DnD-BB-whatever.

DnD by itself generates extra threat, and DnD without diseases do less damage. That's why it should normally go after spreading diseases.

If the DK insists on dropping DnD before you have mobs grouped up, just Hand of Protection on him. That'll prevent him pulling off you. Usable every 5 minutes (or less). :lol:

Another way to deal with well geared DPS in ICC5 heroics, is to tank normally, and when someone gains aggro on multiple mobs (most often mages and warlocks), dump Holy Wrath to stun the mobs. You may not even need to taunt them---the mobs could be dead by the time they come out of the stun, if the DPS are really that good.

When I'm healing heroics, I usually don't mind if a plate DPS ends up tanking one of the mobs. But I will let them die if they think they can just ignore the tank and do whatever they want. With the LFD system, healers are mostly used to seeing things like that. As long as you use your taunts and don't present too big an attitude (like "you over-taunt you tank it"), reasonable people won't complain.
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Re: First time tanking .. need some advice

Postby Fath » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:22 am

well got my triumph badge trinket and the axe out of heroic HOR .. still trying normal hor for shield and
cloak .. and h saron for the sword .. do u think with those i will be able to tank the first wing of ICC 10 man ??
but there is like 4 upgrades from there just from the first 4 bosses for me and i really want to start tanking a raid ?

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zul%27jin&cn=Fath
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