Gemming full +sta bad?

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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Folstar » Tue Apr 13, 2010 12:51 am

I'm not sure if it is the way this is worded, maybe I am not following the scenario right, or maybe it is 2:30 in the damn morning and I should be in bed not waiting for my stupid group to email me the project for tomorrow- but this seems not right:

Koatanga wrote:You can trivialise the value of 1600 health all you want, but what are you trading that for? The ability to dodge 1 out of every 100 hits that happens to follow another hit when the healers are otherwise occupied? At 50% avoidance (being conservative), that follow-on dodge happens 1 in 200 times. Add the chances of there not being a heal in between, and you're talking about a very marginal difference indeed.

Actually it's worse - I just checked my gear and found I only have 4 unmatched red sockets, at .12% dodge each = .48% dodge. So once in every 400 times that the healers are busy I would avoid a consecutive hit that would proc AD. If you want to talk about the chance that there was a follow-on hit that was avoided while the healers were busy and AD had already processed, I'll need Theck's computer to calculate the odds.

I'll have the health, thanks.


Yeah. I'm not even sure what about this is bugging me, but something seems amiss. Maybe someone will explain this in small words or captivating pictures for me... or maybe in the morning I'll see the answer in my tea leaves... but for now this is not sitting right with me. Not the pro-health/stamina part of it, but the probability/hit table mechanics/learn to read what was typed part of it.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Wrathy » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:32 am

There are a few things from my perspective on the topic which have been said here or there and warrant being repeated, as well as my own thoughts on the issue aside from my blog post which was already linked:

Gemming is a personal preference and tweak to your gear, and you are more than welcome to do what ever you chose as long as it works for your guild. Personally, while I agree for the most part with Meloree on his assessment that it is not "needed" for 11/12 HM ICC, mel has some amazing healers. For the rest of us in guilds who are not as fortunate, there are tank deaths and there are issues. I myself find that I have been dying and had issues with a few fights, but overall, there is a better way to handle the issues which have been brought up.

Also, it is important to remember that while we are just talking about min/maxing on gemming, your enchanting philosophy will more than likely align with your gemming philosophy and the gain or loss will more than likely be much more than 1600 hp. Do you have stam on your gloves, shield, 275 hp to chest, gladiator shoulder enchant? These things add up to MUCH more than 1600 hp. At the same time, if you are "deep into hard modes" then you are probably well into the DR curve and you will gain less than 1 to 2% avoidance for a significant trade off in health.

I personally still gem for full stamina, and will continue to do so until the Lich King dies on 25 man hard mode for our guild many times over. Sindragosa is a fight where stamina is king, and has been the most recent example of a time when tanks will not benefit from 1% more avoidance. There are many other examples, but the simple fact of the matter is that you should be gearing, gemming, and enchanting to your healers play style. If you feel that your opinion of gemming for agility/stamina and hit/stamina does the best thing for your guild, go for it. Personally, that is not the case for my guild, and its probably not the case for most of our theorycrafters.

With respect to the hit gems, I agree 100% with theck. If you have hit issues, and taunts are essential (there are only 2 fights where i can think this is the case), then by all means gem some hit, but do it in a different peice of gear, or better yet, wear different gear. On any given night, I swap between four different gear sets regularly, and it makes a huge difference. You should always be specifically gearing for the mob you are tanking, as it provides the most benefit to your guild if you do so.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Meloree » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:09 am

Wrathy wrote:Gemming is a personal preference and tweak to your gear, and you are more than welcome to do what ever you chose as long as it works for your guild.

I personally still gem for full stamina, and will continue to do so until the Lich King dies on 25 man hard mode for our guild many times over.


Wait... did I just become the avoidance advocate?

How did you do that?
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:13 am

Meloree wrote:Wait... did I just become the avoidance advocate?

How did you do that?

He's a wily one, that Wrathy...
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Wrathy » Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:56 am

HA HA HA, welcome to the dark side...
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby yappo » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:29 am

I think it all boils down to 'gear for environment'.

If you die as number one in the raid on a regular basis, well, you simply have to do something about that dying. New healers or more health both aims at mitigating that problem.

If you're usually chatting with 24 corpses wanting you to lie down and die so they can make a new try, well, you probably have too little dps-gear :D

In between these extremes come enchanting and gemming, at least for most of us.

For example, I'm matching every bonus there is, and I have a couple of hit/stam gems to boot. My environment is pugging ICC first wing, and occasionally failing further on (including the chattting with 24 corpses part). So I compose my gear for more dps, not for the threat but because every extra dps helps meeting the enrage timers in a situation where raid dps usually is on a level meriting an immediate guild-kick for hardcore raiding guilds.

I simply don't have access to an environment where tankdeath is an issue DESPITE my poor choises in enchanting/gemming, but I DO have access to an environment where those extra 200 or 300 dps I produce is very welcome. As an example my only succesful Fester kill came several seconds AFTER the enrage, and I had to start resurrecting people after the kill. With a full 200 lower dps over the course of the fight we'd never have made it.

Besides, I don't have access to a wardrobe with 264 gear to chose from. That's also an issue that comes with slow progression. It's a LOT easier to say one should gem different pieces differently if you knock down 10/12 ICC every week.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Digren » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:55 pm

I'm not sure what had to be cut out of this threat, but what's left is really, really nice. There are several different viewpoints covered, but they all seem to be really rational arguments to do what works best for your and your raid.

The key points I see are: gearing for effective health is a great way, or the best way, to gear for most every progression encounter. Sure, you might try something else, and it might work for you. Great! But you also could have stacked stamina and it likely would have worked, too. Meanwhile, there are a few fights where stamina (and armor!) are totally the way to go.

Once a fight isn't a progression fight, or if the fight has a crucial gimmick mechanic, do what works best without compromising your progression gear. That means, if you need to cap hit, do so by switching in some +hit gear, not by replacing gems in your progression set. If you want to boost DPS, do so by switching in some DPS gear (like a nice weapon), not by replacing gems in your progression set. If you want to cap block rating to tank Anub adds, do so by switching in block rating gear, not by replacing gems in your progression set. Make each piece the best it can be for its role, and then switch in the gear you want for the encounter. If you hate Blizzard's gear rack thing then ItemRack still works fine.

What if you never progress? Meaning all you do are things you already outgear, like heroics and farming the first wing of ICC? Then do what works best for you. Maybe you don't need a progression gear set right now, and can make your best gear into a threat set. Go for it.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:32 am

I'd like to add that there are situations where avoidance beats armor for progression, those being situations in which more EH has no significant effect on your survival chances because the damage intake is so enormous.

An example of this in a current environment is LK-25 hc frenzied adds hit for ~50k damage and enraged adds for 80k+, you might have a normal add (25k) + frenzied add on you at a time, which creates a situation where no amount of EH will save you (75k dmg = splat); now granted you should not rely on avoidance saving you, but incase your main plan (cooldowns) fails armor does not provide any backup, only avoidance can save you.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby theckhd » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:40 am

Boyfriend wrote:I'd like to add that there are situations where avoidance beats armor for progression, those being situations in which more EH has no significant effect on your survival chances because the damage intake is so enormous.

An example of this in a current environment is LK-25 hc frenzied adds hit for ~50k damage and enraged adds for 80k+, you might have a normal add (25k) + frenzied add on you at a time, which creates a situation where no amount of EH will save you (75k dmg = splat); now granted you should not rely on avoidance saving you, but incase your main plan (cooldowns) fails armor does not provide any backup, only avoidance can save you.


True, but you have to balance that against the EH checks later in the fight (Soul Reaper+Melee) that do reward EH/Stam stacking. Your gearing strategy there would probably depend on what kills you more often - if you're dying to random phase 1 deaths, but have enough EH for later phases, then avoidance starts looking good. If phase 1 is rarely an issue but quick LK burst deaths are occurring frequently, EH would be the preferable choice.

Worse yet for those looking for a simple rule of thumb, the situation you're in probably has more to do with your healer composition, their skill level, and your raid's strategy than the encounter itself. So it's a question that may have different answers for two identical tanks in two different guilds.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:47 am

Yes it depends entirely on what you're doing on an encounter; and later parts strongly favor EH again. But the at least Paragons and FTH's kill are handled actually paint avoidance/stamina gear in a much better light than is generally done. Armor is only really good if you're tanking LK, avoidance is only really good if you're tanking adds in P1, stamina is useful throughout most of the encounter.

It was more of an example, and explanation why some tanks actually use aviodance gear for this fight; it's very possible the only thing they'll be tanking is P1 adds and soaking spirits.
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Re: Gemming full +sta bad?

Postby inthedrops » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:50 am

theckhd wrote:Worse yet for those looking for a simple rule of thumb, the situation you're in probably has more to do with your healer composition, their skill level, and your raid's strategy than the encounter itself. So it's a question that may have different answers for two identical tanks in two different guilds.


Very well phrased!
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