Akil'Zon Kicking my butt

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Postby Blaen99 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:41 pm

Invisusira wrote:
jere wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:I can state for a fact he NEVER storms the MT.


I can state for a fact he does. Happened to me last week. He tossed my butt up into the air and did the electrical storm. I was well ahead on threat, and nobody pulled. As soon as I landed, he went back to meleeing me and everyone spread out again.

Something happened then. He does NOT do things to the #1 on aggro.

Well, besides attack them.


QFT.
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Postby jere » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:15 am

Blaen99 wrote:
Invisusira wrote:
jere wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:I can state for a fact he NEVER storms the MT.


I can state for a fact he does. Happened to me last week. He tossed my butt up into the air and did the electrical storm. I was well ahead on threat, and nobody pulled. As soon as I landed, he went back to meleeing me and everyone spread out again.

Something happened then. He does NOT do things to the #1 on aggro.

Well, besides attack them.


QFT.


Is there a source on that? I have seen things contradictory to your assertation. What makes it a fact?
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Postby Blaen99 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:24 am

jere wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Invisusira wrote:
jere wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:I can state for a fact he NEVER storms the MT.


I can state for a fact he does. Happened to me last week. He tossed my butt up into the air and did the electrical storm. I was well ahead on threat, and nobody pulled. As soon as I landed, he went back to meleeing me and everyone spread out again.

Something happened then. He does NOT do things to the #1 on aggro.

Well, besides attack them.


QFT.


Is there a source on that? I have seen things contradictory to your assertation. What makes it a "fact"?


I have nothing but extensive fraps of the fight.

Assuming a 1 in 10 chance of him storming the tank...

I have roughly ~300 storms fraps'd. (Sub-300, admittantly, but assuming 10 storms per fraps, I have 27 fraps's of him to date. Go go wipes :(.)

Someone do the math for me as to the odds of me not getting storm'd once in that entire time.

(Please note, however, we do NOT stack on the tank - we stack on the resident tree druid away from the tank. We've NEVER had a storm on me once - ever.)
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Postby jere » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:26 am

So it hasn't happened yet, so therefor it is impossible for it to happen?

Since I have seen it happen twice for me and once for a prot warrior in our guild, I am gonna lean on the side that it does happen. Odds or not, sometimes luck is just luck.

Edit: It also happened to Vic, so perhaps you were just lucky.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:28 am

jere wrote:So it hasn't happened yet, so therefor it is impossible for it to happen? Since I have seen it happen twice for me and once for a prot warrior in our guild, I am gonna lean on the side that it does happen. Odds or not, sometimes luck is just luck.


My hunch is that you were doing Something Very Wrong then.

Care to post the fraps of the fight and/or more data?

One possibility is, for instance, you were < #1 on threat - but he was still on you, because ranged require > 130% threat to pull.

(Edit) After discussing it with multiple tanks on my server + off of server, yeah.

You are doing something different. My hunch is that you aren't #1 on threat when you do get stormed. Care to post a fraps? Or some actual physical data that people can go through?
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Postby Dorvan » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:08 am

....or somehow he's standing further away from the boss than most of the raid members (e.g. they're all inside Azki'lon's hitbox or something). I find that he tends to storm people further away from him. That would explain why some people have never seen this depending on how their raid collapses.
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Postby jere » Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:36 am

I have never had any trouble with threat on him so far. All I did was tank the guy, not sure what I could do wrong on that. I was ahead on threat by a good margin. Maybe it has something to do with the positioning / distance as Dorvan suggested, but saying "you are doing something very wrong" isn't really necessary. What's wrong with being the elecrical storm victim? So far the two times it has happened had no real adverse effects. I was healed through it, it was over, I went back to tanking. It's not like it is causing wipes or anything for our group.

Seriously, the electrical storm is no big deal. Everyone runs to the boss, he picks a target to use, the target gets healed, storm over, everyone spreads out. Sometimes it is the MT, but most of the time it is not. If it is the MT, then no big deal honestly.

I would suggest you do some testing where your group collapses on the boss before stating it as a fact though. So far 2 people in this thread have mentioned it happening (Vic and myself), and I have seen it done to another tank other than myself. There is nothing wrong with it, but it does happen.
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Postby Gerilith » Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:20 am

Normally, almost every boss ability that should not hit the main aggro target is RSTS (Random Secondary Target System). The problem is, that having 2 abilities with RSTS it becomes possible that he has one target for Static Disruption and therefore chooses the tank to get the storm in that very moment - possibly. :?:
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Postby Blaen99 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:43 am

jere wrote:I have never had any trouble with threat on him so far. All I did was tank the guy, not sure what I could do wrong on that. I was ahead on threat by a good margin. Maybe it has something to do with the positioning / distance as Dorvan suggested, but saying "you are doing something very wrong" isn't really necessary. What's wrong with being the elecrical storm victim? So far the two times it has happened had no real adverse effects. I was healed through it, it was over, I went back to tanking. It's not like it is causing wipes or anything for our group.

Seriously, the electrical storm is no big deal. Everyone runs to the boss, he picks a target to use, the target gets healed, storm over, everyone spreads out. Sometimes it is the MT, but most of the time it is not. If it is the MT, then no big deal honestly.

I would suggest you do some testing where your group collapses on the boss before stating it as a fact though. So far 2 people in this thread have mentioned it happening (Vic and myself), and I have seen it done to another tank other than myself. There is nothing wrong with it, but it does happen.


Then you are running into something that honestly should not happen on Eagle.

Period.

Sorry, but it doesn't make any logical sense that it only happens to 3 tanks...when I've talked to a good 20+ at this point who have tanked Eagle the same way I do, and they have never been stormed.

You guys do something different. Perhaps you collapse on the tank? Perhaps it is a threat issue? Perhaps it's a range issue?

There's no way to know unless you post data we can sift through. My advice is to fraps+WWS it next time you do him. If he storms you, you have a definite counterpoint and us theorycrafters can sift through it and figure out what happened.
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Postby jere » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:50 am

Blaen99 wrote:
Then you are running into something that honestly should not happen on Eagle.

Period.



Why? Why shouldn't it happen? There are no serious consequences for it happening to the MT. I survived it fine twice and I didn't feel like I was gonna die or even close.

Blaen99 wrote:Sorry, but it doesn't make any logical sense that it only happens to 3 tanks...when I've talked to a good 20+ at this point who have tanked Eagle the same way I do, and they have never been stormed.

You guys do something different. Perhaps you collapse on the tank?

Yes, we collapse on the tank. That's why I said you shouldn't state it as fact. You have only tried it a limited number of ways. There are different strategies for many bosses that you can do.

Blaen99 wrote:Perhaps it is a threat issue? Perhaps it's a range issue?

Like I said in my previous post, I was well ahead on threat. Again, I don't consider it an issue, since the MT being the target of the electrical storm isn't some horrible thing that shouldn't happen. It could be related to range though since we collapse.

Blaen99 wrote:There's no way to know unless you post data we can sift through. My advice is to fraps+WWS it next time you do him. If he storms you, you have a definite counterpoint and us theorycrafters can sift through it and figure out what happened.

If you think I am lying, then I cannot honestly do anything to convince you. It's what happened to me plain and simple. I have no reason to lie about it though as I don't even see it as a big issue if it happens. If you are gonna theorycraft though, make sure to collect a full set of data. Don't just try things one way and say "that's how it is. ____ should never happen". That isn't a very responsible theorycrafting. You need to be open to the fact that either your data could be incomplete (I am not saying it is, but as a theorycrafter, you need to always be ready for that). You haven't tried it multiple times with collapsing on the tank for example.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:54 am

jere wrote:
Blaen99 wrote:
Then you are running into something that honestly should not happen on Eagle.

Period.



Why? Why shouldn't it happen? There are no serious consequences for it happening to the MT. I survived it fine twice and I didn't feel like I was gonna die or even close.

Blaen99 wrote:Sorry, but it doesn't make any logical sense that it only happens to 3 tanks...when I've talked to a good 20+ at this point who have tanked Eagle the same way I do, and they have never been stormed.

You guys do something different. Perhaps you collapse on the tank?

Yes, we collapse on the tank. That's why I said you shouldn't state it as fact. You have only tried it a limited number of ways. There are different strategies for many bosses that you can do.

Blaen99 wrote:Perhaps it is a threat issue? Perhaps it's a range issue?

Like I said in my previous post, I was well ahead on threat. Again, I don't consider it an issue, since the MT being the target of the electrical storm isn't some horrible thing that shouldn't happen. It could be related to range though since we collapse.

Blaen99 wrote:There's no way to know unless you post data we can sift through. My advice is to fraps+WWS it next time you do him. If he storms you, you have a definite counterpoint and us theorycrafters can sift through it and figure out what happened.

If you think I am lying, then I cannot honestly do anything to convince you. It's what happened to me plain and simple. I have no reason to lie about it though as I don't even see it as a big issue if it happens. If you are gonna theorycraft though, make sure to collect a full set of data. Don't just try things one way and say "that's how it is. ____ should never happen". That isn't a very responsible theorycrafting. You need to be open to the fact that either your data could be incomplete (I am not saying it is, but as a theorycrafter, you need to always be ready for that). You haven't tried it multiple times with collapsing on the tank for example.


People are calling shens because it only has happened to a very limited subset of tanks.

Mathematically, there is NO reason it should only happen to, for instance, you and it doesn't happen to me or Invis with as many times as each of us has done Eagle.

Hence it comes down to you are doing something wrong. We cannot possibly prove that you are doing something wrong beyond anecdotal evidence (Well, it has NOT happened to me, or all these people I know). Hence, it lies on your shoulders to prove how it happened.

As I said, fraps/WWS should give us sufficient info to figure out what is going on. Please post it on your next Eagle - I'd love to find out why he storms the tank.
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Postby Comma » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:06 am

Even if he did take the storm, there shouldnt be burst damage when the boss is casting the storm already.

My guess is

1 - the delay on storm, lightening bolts on the raid including the tank when ppl collapse on the tank,

2 - in the mean time, tank still takes melee damage which may include crushing blow because of delay of holy shield,

3 - then possibly when the tank is really low on hp, the boss targeted the tank and storm, finished off the tank.

However, No.3 case shouldnt happen often (I healed and tanked this fight, did get stormed myself, cant remmember whether i was healing or tanking though, but it can never kill me either way), so if you die often, most possibly because of case 1 and 2 then.

But again, combat stats would explain much better, because theory is theory, fact is fact. :D
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Postby Dorvan » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:07 am

Except that "something wrong" presumes there's anything dire about having the tank get stormed....but really, there isn't. I suppose if your DPS is riding you *really* close it would make a difference, but you're only losing what, 10 seconds of threat?

No need to be so hostile about it :P

P.S. I'm in the same position as Comma...I've been stormed, but I can't remember if I was tanking or healing at the time.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:09 am

Dorvan wrote:Except that "something wrong" presumes there's anything dire about having the tank get stormed....but really, there isn't. I suppose if your DPS is riding you *really* close it would make a difference, but you're only losing what, 10 seconds of threat?

No need to be so hostile about it :P

P.S. I'm in the same position as Comma...I've been stormed, but I can't remember if I was tanking or healing at the time.


I really should be saying "wrong", shouldn't I?

It's not wrong wrong, it's just there shouldn't be any reason for the tank to get stormed - which implies he's found out an odd bug/problem in the fight.
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Postby jere » Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:20 am

Blaen99 wrote:People are calling shens because it only has happened to a very limited subset of tanks.

Mathematically, there is NO reason it should only happen to, for instance, you and it doesn't happen to me or Invis with as many times as each of us has done Eagle.

Hence it comes down to you are doing something wrong. We cannot possibly prove that you are doing something wrong beyond anecdotal evidence (Well, it has NOT happened to me, or all these people I know). Hence, it lies on your shoulders to prove how it happened.

As I said, fraps/WWS should give us sufficient info to figure out what is going on. Please post it on your next Eagle - I'd love to find out why he storms the tank.


Hopefully you aren't taking my posts more meanly than I mean them. I am not trying to be rude at all. I just think you haven't done full testing. For example:

Blaen99 wrote:Mathematically, there is NO reason it should only happen to, for instance, you and it doesn't happen to me or Invis with as many times as each of us has done Eagle.

What math are you referring to? You haven't tested all the possibilities of tanking setups yet. You haven't tested one setup at all yet. You have tested one many many times, which is great, but you haven't tested them all. In addition, you are limiting your data to a small subset of tanks (data). This means your mathematical model is too incomplete to be using it as a statement of fact. Remember, that my assertation (that it can happen) only requires a data set of size one. Once it happens, it well...happens. So my small subset is fine on my end. Your end requires a rather large subset before providing a statistical model. There is still much we are all learning on the eagle boss.

Again, I am not trying to be rude nor do I mean my posts with any malcontent. I have simply seen different than you and was posting that. I apologize if I posted it in a way that was hard to interpret.

As for fraps, I don't have that, but I can try to run a WWS.

One last thing though:
blaen99 wrote:As I said, fraps/WWS should give us sufficient info to figure out what is going on. Please post it on your next Eagle - I'd love to find out why he storms the tank.

I have tanked the eagle 10 or so times now, and have had it happen only twice. The prot warrior in our guild has tanked him about the same number and it has only happened once to him. I am not saying it is guarunteed to happen everytime but that it does occasionally happen (and that there is nothing bad or crazy about that, it is very manageable)
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