Righteous Fury threat generation bugged - confirmed

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Postby Faelure » Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:47 am

At least they aren't as strange as those ones in Arc.
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Postby QuantumDelta » Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:32 pm

Having tested and occasionally abused the developer of Omen.
It's fine.
It's superior to KTM at this stage in every way.
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Postby Tao519 » Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:21 pm

Personally i have never found any problems holding threat.

I have just over 200 SD, always run with max rank consecrate and HS, and i bounce between SoB and SoR tanking, SoB using a DPS weapon, just for a bit of fun and seeing what kind of single target damage i can do. The only time i lose agro is when i have a bit of fun and tell my DPS to go crazy and TRY and pull agro, just to show them that they are holding back too much and they can go harder if they wish.

The only problem i can think of that alot of people are having could be that the person your running with doesnt have updated KTM/Omen. IF their's is not up to date, it will not broadcast the correct threat numbers, and therefore yours will be showing them way lower on threat, and they can still pull agro.
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Postby Katamai » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:02 am

Was too tired to post last night but... last night i had another of these flukes i've been seeing.

In MH we did Kaz'rogal and i had no problems AoE tanking the waves.
In BT my threat was insanely great (as it should be with 610 spell dmg) and on Supremus i ended pushing stable 1.5K threat (and died due to a nubish mistake at 5% :P).

Then i went with retnab Nickki and some friends for a quick badge run in heroic Ramps. Everything was going fine (i <3 sanctity aura) until we got to the dragon.

Rider died without a prob, i casted AS on the Dragon, JoCr, SoR, then suddenly i lost aggro... to my healer.
I tauned, and after RD effect expired, i lost aggro again!

So i didn't lose aggro to our mage, rogue or ret paladin but to a healer who had BoSalv on him...twice! With 550+ spell dmg, JoCr, Sanctity aura and enough time to build threat, losing aggro to a healer shouldn't ever happen imho :/

And before you ask, no, i wasn't feared.
I... was... once... called... Ashbringer...
My... son... watched... me... die...
KILL... THEM... ALL!
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Postby Ubung » Sat Dec 01, 2007 5:45 am

Ive been reading this thread with interest as last week in Kara I was having similar problems. I held off replying till this week so I could confirm my problems but im sure someething is wrong. The specs I currently have are:

230 Spell dmg

with this I was putting out 200 - 300 tps while using excosism.

Before the recent patch I didnt even have to try to get the aggro off anyone else in the grp. When spamming everything the DPS could go all out to keep up. Now Im getting overaggroed firstly by the warrior offtank. In one place I was tanking a undead mob below the opera stage and I hit it with excorsism, sor, jor and another excorsism, all the time with holy shield up and the mob turned to the off tank. He didnt taunt from me and this was happening all through kara. A lot of the time I would be well ahead on aggro only for the mob to go attack someone else. I finding it really hard because without the obvious threat lead over my warrior off tank then my 600 more HP is looking worse by the second.

Anyway I had a bit of a theory and I wanted to let you know. Tbh I dont know much about hunters so if anything I say is wrong then please correct me.

We have a hunter in the raid who is BM. He has his pet on growl so it goes big and red (dont know the name of the skill) and he gets more DPS. Would the pet growling cause me to lose aggro and then start wiping the squishies or would I keep aggro after the pet dies?

The problem with the aggro bug is that things happen so randomnly its difficult to place it. Im very worried though because with the aggro I generate in Kara is pitiful compared to the warrior offtank we have.
nerf scissors, buff paper, rock is fine!

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Postby Tekkel » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:48 am

The big red thing is not growl :)
It's just a 50% damage boost for around 20 seconds on his pet. If you have a hunter with growl on his pet while you are tanking you should have him shot on site.
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Postby Mahale » Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:29 am

I've noticed these same problems. Ever since the patch I'd had a harder time holding aggro.... sometimes. That's what's so frustrating you go a night of terrible threat generation and then the next you can do a full kara clear no problems.

I never lose aggro on Hydross' spawns but we wiped twice because of me, we had to have one of the fearl druids helping out for a total of three tanks on adds instead of the kitty dpsing. (which is his spec)

So what's the rule? We cast RF at full mana or low mana? I'm praying that the next patch fixes this. It's coming out Tuesday right?
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:46 am

Eneru wrote:Working as intended

by a GM 11/20/2007

/cry


GMs rarely know anything about game mechanics.
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Postby Blaen99 » Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:56 am

Mahale wrote:I've noticed these same problems. Ever since the patch I'd had a harder time holding aggro.... sometimes. That's what's so frustrating you go a night of terrible threat generation and then the next you can do a full kara clear no problems.

I never lose aggro on Hydross' spawns but we wiped twice because of me, we had to have one of the fearl druids helping out for a total of three tanks on adds instead of the kitty dpsing. (which is his spec)

So what's the rule? We cast RF at full mana or low mana? I'm praying that the next patch fixes this. It's coming out Tuesday right?


Amen. I held Void Reaver for even longer than I've ever done before last night, but the night before that?

... Oh god, my threat was TERRIBLE.
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Postby Faelure » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:35 pm

Full mana seems to be the way to go I guess.

I still haven't seen any of these weird quirks since the patch and I've tanked everything from afk demons lol to threat dropping, normally annoying fights for paladins (talking heroics mainly).

On the comment about heroic ramps, we had an interesting situation happen where the dragon didn't land at his normal time. We had low dps because we were dragging a just 70 prot pally through for gear and badges so he was off healing. The rider was just about to die (dragon's normal time to die) and instead of landing on the ground or even giving out the emote he "landed" in the air above our priest healer and 2 shot him, then he proceeded to land in his normal spot probably 20 seconds after Vazruden had died and I picked him up . No aggro drops after that tho.
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Postby Typhoeus » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:32 am

Interesting the RF may be "mana bugged".

I must admit I've been having some threat issues myself. On a Kara run with exorcism i had HUGE threat at some points (2400TPS spike on prince, 1800-2000 sustained for the rest of the fight on him), but then at others i was struggling to keep my (undead) targets.

Fel reaver is another example. At one time i was changed over to healing duty (/cry) instead of being in the tank rotation cause i couldn't keep aggro and couldn't pick him up if one of the tanks ahead of me lost him. It made me really question what i was doing.

Then the next week's run, we had plenty of healers so i was in the tank rotation and told "try and get aggro if you can, but just do damage" as an off tank #3 on VR. The warrior and druid would be getting the misdirects as they were the "primary" tanks.

Well, without any MD's i maintained aggro spot #1 and #2 the entire fight and i ended up tanking him for the majority of the time in the fight. This was without MD's! (a victory ending up in me winning the roll for T5 shoulders. woot!)

ZA is the same. Some times i have almost foolishly high threat, other times i am struggling to keep mobs off of the casters or Melee DPS.

Could the difference really be casting RF as your first buff or last buff, i.e. mana dependent? If it is or it isn't, I'll be casting RF carefully now.
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Postby Nicki » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:51 am

Typhoeus wrote:Interesting the RF may be "mana bugged".

I must admit I've been having some threat issues myself. On a Kara run with exorcism i had HUGE threat at some points (2400TPS spike on prince, 1800-2000 sustained for the rest of the fight on him), but then at others i was struggling to keep my (undead) targets.

Fel reaver is another example. At one time i was changed over to healing duty (/cry) instead of being in the tank rotation cause i couldn't keep aggro and couldn't pick him up if one of the tanks ahead of me lost him. It made me really question what i was doing.

Then the next week's run, we had plenty of healers so i was in the tank rotation and told "try and get aggro if you can, but just do damage" as an off tank #3 on VR. The warrior and druid would be getting the misdirects as they were the "primary" tanks.

Well, without any MD's i maintained aggro spot #1 and #2 the entire fight and i ended up tanking him for the majority of the time in the fight. This was without MD's! (a victory ending up in me winning the roll for T5 shoulders. woot!)

ZA is the same. Some times i have almost foolishly high threat, other times i am struggling to keep mobs off of the casters or Melee DPS.

Could the difference really be casting RF as your first buff or last buff, i.e. mana dependent? If it is or it isn't, I'll be casting RF carefully now.


grats you just failed to show anything other than omen can show ridculous numbers...If RF is bugged (and I see no reason for it not to be, Omen will NOT report acurate numbers, OMEN is based on THEORY meaning if there is something wrong you will find aggro lost before omen says you should...

A paladin should always go first on void reaver....and t5 shoulders sux0r..
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Postby Caelia » Sun Dec 02, 2007 9:53 am

Nicki wrote:
Typhoeus wrote:Interesting the RF may be "mana bugged".

I must admit I've been having some threat issues myself. On a Kara run with exorcism i had HUGE threat at some points (2400TPS spike on prince, 1800-2000 sustained for the rest of the fight on him), but then at others i was struggling to keep my (undead) targets.

Fel reaver is another example. At one time i was changed over to healing duty (/cry) instead of being in the tank rotation cause i couldn't keep aggro and couldn't pick him up if one of the tanks ahead of me lost him. It made me really question what i was doing.

Then the next week's run, we had plenty of healers so i was in the tank rotation and told "try and get aggro if you can, but just do damage" as an off tank #3 on VR. The warrior and druid would be getting the misdirects as they were the "primary" tanks.

Well, without any MD's i maintained aggro spot #1 and #2 the entire fight and i ended up tanking him for the majority of the time in the fight. This was without MD's! (a victory ending up in me winning the roll for T5 shoulders. woot!)

ZA is the same. Some times i have almost foolishly high threat, other times i am struggling to keep mobs off of the casters or Melee DPS.

Could the difference really be casting RF as your first buff or last buff, i.e. mana dependent? If it is or it isn't, I'll be casting RF carefully now.


grats you just failed to show anything other than omen can show ridculous numbers...If RF is bugged (and I see no reason for it not to be, Omen will NOT report acurate numbers, OMEN is based on THEORY meaning if there is something wrong you will find aggro lost before omen says you should...

A paladin should always go first on void reaver....and t5 shoulders sux0r..

i wouldnt mind my t5 shoulders...
In Progress: Fury Warrior: Tailwhip
All Retired: Holy Priest:Appletons | DK Blood Tank: Dreadborne | Prot Paladin: Welsh
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Postby Typhoeus » Sun Dec 02, 2007 10:17 am

Nicki wrote:
grats you just failed to show anything other than omen can show ridculous numbers...If RF is bugged (and I see no reason for it not to be, Omen will NOT report acurate numbers, OMEN is based on THEORY meaning if there is something wrong you will find aggro lost before omen says you should...


Thanks for the reply, but i don't think my previous information is failing at anything.

Sure, it may be that Omen is showing strange numbers (I find it hard to believe a 2400 TPS spike and sustained 1500-1800TPS on prince too). But what about the times it seems to show very accurate numbers? Either Omen is messing up, RF's got some extra bugs associated with it, or both. Using Omen or KTM can help us try and pinpoint where / if / when / why the theory is not matching up with the actual.

I'll install KTM alongside Omen to try and monitor things via the two formats and see what happens.

A paladin should always go first on void reaver....and t5 shoulders sux0r..



As for T5, i haven't decided if i like them over T4. I'm uncrushable with either so I'll just have to play around with them. I kind of like getting some parry stats vs dodge for once as my dodge was getting pretty high.

But I must say T5 is pretty ugly.
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Postby Extermi » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:11 pm

Today I took a quick look into the source code of Omen, esp. the Paladin code in the threatlib. It seems the guys did a dirty job (several casts that generate Aggro are unhandled, like casting SOR, etc.), so that the reported threat is too low.

It gets really interesting looking at the code that was written to incorporate the fanatism change. It is quite ugly, calls same code segments multiple times without reason, and looks "unclean". Still, no obvious bug in it.

But, the handling of buffs being cast and uncast looks like it relies on callbacks alot. If there really would be a "hidden" second buff that would sometimes be handled by WoW, it would fail.

To produce that, one would need to cast RF with full mana (casting the second hidden buff, if the theory is true), and cast RF at low mana shortly before the buff wears off 30 minutes later. That could yield wrong Omen readings in that case.

But this is rather academic, as the fix is underway according to Blizzard. If Omen would now be fixed to include the missing Paladin threat it would be ok.

I for myself have not yet encountered aggro problems, but Im on my way to VR and we will see ...

Edit: Ok on Void Reaver have been 2 cases where Aggro was not where we expected it. We were using our proven Tank team, a druid, a warrior, and me.

First, around 70%, we had a kickback and VR was heading not to the next tank in the list (we 3 had quite some margin at that time) but to a poor hunter, that was around #10 on the aggro list. My tank buddies were as shocked as I was, luckily our druid was charging an was able to pull him before VR could attack anybody else.

Second, at aroung 15% VR stayed on me, although in Omen I was clearly way behind the other two tanks, and he stayed on me until he went down.

Now, as I see it, Aggro is definitely a bit funky right now, but we are all in the same boat here. And, Paladin Aggro is too low on Omen, lower than in reality.

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