Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:59 am

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:I was under the impression it already was! Am I the only one who stands in the laser beam during the HoS event for mana?

That's not a laser beam, it's a mana stream. And the purple things they throw on the ground are mana pots.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7985
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Apr 09, 2010 9:01 am

I see I see! It all makes sense now!
Image
The Seeker.
User avatar
Grehn|Skipjack
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Malorne

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby bldavis » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:12 am

theckhd wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:I was under the impression it already was! Am I the only one who stands in the laser beam during the HoS event for mana?

That's not a laser beam, it's a mana stream. And the purple things they throw on the ground are mana pots.


i lol'ed
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 7382
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby bentglasstube » Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:49 am

I wish they would add mana streams and pots to the escape even in HoR
User avatar
bentglasstube
 
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:46 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Koatanga » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:17 pm

Just out of curiosity, didn't we already prove the "must take damage in order to generate threat" concept sucked balls back in BC?

Why would they want to return to it now?

Correct me if I am wrong, but in Wrath didn't every tank get a benefit from avoiding damage (mana, rage) specifically to counter the idiocy of BC?

Edit: Actually I thought about it some more, and since they are making sure we take damage form even the most insignificant of mobs, maybe this won't be an issue. Parry only reduces damage by half, no more way to block-value your way to immunity vs. level 5 kobolds - they still hit you, you just block 35% of it. Yay.

Man, questing as prot is going to be a bitch. All the damage, but none of the instant-heals that Ret and holy have. Oh joy.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 2007
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Argali » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:34 pm

All the survivability that holy and ret won't have though.
Image
User avatar
Argali
 
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:38 am

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby chinoquezada » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:58 pm

Koatanga wrote:Just out of curiosity, didn't we already prove the "must take damage in order to generate threat" concept sucked balls back in BC?

Why would they want to return to it now?

Correct me if I am wrong, but in Wrath didn't every tank get a benefit from avoiding damage (mana, rage) specifically to counter the idiocy of BC?

Edit: Actually I thought about it some more, and since they are making sure we take damage form even the most insignificant of mobs, maybe this won't be an issue. Parry only reduces damage by half, no more way to block-value your way to immunity vs. level 5 kobolds - they still hit you, you just block 35% of it. Yay.

Man, questing as prot is going to be a bitch. All the damage, but none of the instant-heals that Ret and holy have. Oh joy.


In BC damage = threat but with a middle man, rage and mana. The problem with this is scalability, as gear increased, tanks either had a shit ton of the middle man, or were outright starved of it. Having a shit ton of the resource without a GCD to use it, or having a shit ton of GCDs without the resources to use them was a freaking juggling act almost impossible to manage.

In WotLK they added avoidance+damage = threat with the same middle man. And the problems stayed the same. At this point, there is no rage or mana starvation, but there is just not enough GCDs to use even 25% of it before we fill it up again.

I believe the intention in Cataclysm is to cut the damn middle man. Keep mana and rage the same (aka. almost infinite when main tanking) but increase our threat through direct AP increases based on damage.
User avatar
chinoquezada
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:47 am

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Sat Apr 10, 2010 3:08 am

theckhd wrote:
ulushnar wrote:Surely if Vengeance applies to all tanking specs, then there'll be a way to ensure that even off-tanks get some damage worked into the fights, either via saber lashes, cleaves, hateful strikes or constant adds.
Maybe, though that seems like an unnecessary constraint to add to the encounter designers. It's not like the mechanic is dynamic; if you're main tanking they expect it to be at 10% the whole time. So why buff tank DPS and limit your encounter designers when you could just buff tank DPS and be done with it?

To avoid tank DPS being too high when they're not tanking, and to avoid tank DPS being higher than DPS DPS if the tank was wearing DPS gear?

The aim is that tanks have DPS at around 50% of DPS toons, without them having to stack DPS stats which can't be put on their gear without some funky new itemisation scheme (talents to convert Crit to Dodge?). If you make the tanking tree do a fuckton of DPS via talents without requiring significant DPS stats on their gear, then you run the risk of people taking it as a DPS tree - especially in PVP.

Tank TPS can come from:
  1. Talents (or talent activated abilities like HotR) - this is hellaciously hard to balance.
  2. Wearing DPS gear - ugh.
  3. Ridiculous threat multipliers - not "fun".
  4. Taking damage
The only one that meets the designers' goals is the 4th - tank threat comes from taking damage. They're tried a pile of ways to balance this (as Chino mentions). This is by far the best way they've come up with so far - take two hits, +50% DPS, scales with stamina.

As for worrying about OTs having low threat, the only situation I can think of where it would be a problem is a Deathwhisper-style fight with no raid damage or adds to soak. I already hate Deathwhisper, 4.0 talents aren't going to fix it.

Vengeance is capped at 10% of base health, and stacks at 5% of damage taken. So you need to take double your base health in total damage for it to peg. Now, I'm aware than ICC is not the tanking style we'll be facing in Cataclysm (damage will be lower relative to buffed health while heals will be smaller - or at least, that's what they seem to be aiming for). But right now, it would take 2 hits from any boss in ICC to cap my Vengeance stack.

  1. Taunt boss.
  2. Whack, Whack, in like two seconds, 20k each.
  3. 3 sec Fixate fades
  4. Oh yeah, Vengeance is capped...

As for our threat multiplier - I'm inclined to think we're still going to need our 250%. DPS are getting a pile of new toys to play with.

I'm 9/12 ICC-25-hard, and there are a lot of places I'm barely managing to stay ahead of DPS. Shadow priests anywhere their healing is effective, Affliction warlocks with any kite/air phases, etc. I need Tricks on any fight where threat might be an issue. Back when we were doing 50% DPS, things were fine.

Personal TPS boost to 20k in ICC would be ZOMG OP right now... but you need to remember that DPS are also getting buffed out the wazoo as well. I expect that this change will fix our scaling. I'd like threat to be tuned to about where it was in 3.1/3.2. Naxx was too easy, and ICC requires too much focus on threat. ToGC was pretty much spot on - short periods where you'd have to fixate on threat, but most of the time you could de-tunnel on executing 969 perfectly and concentrate on raid awareness.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby theckhd » Sat Apr 10, 2010 7:07 am

I agree that it's a better idea than some of the others, but I think there are more elegant ways to implement it. I don't like the idea that half of a tank's DPS is contingent on him taking damage, it's just too large a swing in personal DPS and threat output.

If they want to prevent DPS classes from taking it, they just need to tie it into the aggro talents. If Righteous Fury gave you 35% of your unbuffed as AP, it would accomplish the same thing without being reasonable for DPS classes (because the Ret would pull aggro) and without being as variable (since it won't fall off in PvE). Tie it to a 30+ point Prot talent and you're done.

I'm not opposed to the Vengeance mechanic, I just think the magnitude is way too large. Make it a 10% personal DPS swing and it's OK, but 50% is huge.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7985
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Meloree » Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:43 pm

theckhd wrote:I agree that it's a better idea than some of the others, but I think there are more elegant ways to implement it. I don't like the idea that half of a tank's DPS is contingent on him taking damage, it's just too large a swing in personal DPS and threat output.

If they want to prevent DPS classes from taking it, they just need to tie it into the aggro talents. If Righteous Fury gave you 35% of your unbuffed as AP, it would accomplish the same thing without being reasonable for DPS classes (because the Ret would pull aggro) and without being as variable (since it won't fall off in PvE). Tie it to a 30+ point Prot talent and you're done.

I'm not opposed to the Vengeance mechanic, I just think the magnitude is way too large. Make it a 10% personal DPS swing and it's OK, but 50% is huge.


I have to disagree. If the buff was toggleable into any of the forms, you'ld find wild variances in performance on totally non-threat limited fights. If Rets could buff RF a minute into Festergut for another 3k ap or more, that'd lead to balancing problems. Tying it completely to spec - have 51 points in prot - is probably the best way that Blizzard can leave it out of the hands of the dps.

Is taking damage the best way of going about it? It probably is. First, it addresses "op in pvp" concerns - if you don't focus the tank class, he can't hurt you. Seconds, it reduces the chance of wierd "0/51/25 prot/ret dps specs" being the best way to dps on a paladin.

Does that suck for the OT? Probably not as much as you'ld think. There's only one fight in WotLK where actually ripping threat from the MT is something the OT has to do - and even then it depends on strat. Most fights have something for the OT(s) to do - they're taking damage in some way, and will hence have vengeance stacks, or they're running around kiting something and vengeance stacks don't matter - rarely is an OT just standing around pretending to dps for lack of something better to do. For various reasons, that's probably the encounter design they prefer right now - making sure that OT's aren't doing nothing for 4 phases of a 5 phase fight (Illidan) - and Vengeance plays into that just fine.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:23 pm

Based on how wrath went, about a 50% DPS boost does feel about right. In ICC, I would like about 50% more threat, that you very much, especially with DPS getting a boost.

Of course, we don't know how big the DPS boost will be in Cataclysm, since we don't know what the stam/AP ratio will be at 85 - we're just assuming it will be similar to what it is now.


Meloree has covered the "tied to stance" issue. You just end up with your balance issues back as ret/prot hybrids toggle on their RF. It boils down to this:

  1. Tanks need a massive TPS boost that is not tied to wearing TPS stats (outside a little hit/expertise, perhaps).
  2. Blizzard want the TPS to come from DPS, not tricks/MD or huge threat multipliers.
  3. Static DPS multipliers have scaling issues - this was the Wrath problem. I did too much damage in Naxx, compared to DPS players, and not enough in ICC.
  4. OP tanking DPS boosts need to be unavailable to people in DPS roles, and also hard to use in PVP.
(3) means that the DPS boost needs to scale with a tanking stat. That pretty much has to be stamina.

(4) means that you pretty much have to tie the DPS boost to being clobbered. You think this is a problem for 0/51/25 specced Ret paladins turning on RF? Imagine that Ferals could pop bear form for a +50% AP boost while wearing DPS gear? They're already said that Vengeance will probably need a nerf for druids.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Meloree » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:56 am

You've mentioned threat problems a couple of times now, and I'm forced to ask - what kind of numbers are your dps pulling? Ours are generally in the 12-15k range, and I have yet to have threat problems, even running an overly fast 245 weapon most of the time.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:56 pm

11-13k DPS, depending on the fight, we don't run tank priority for loot, and we're 9/12 hard modes. Probably would have got PP-hard this week, but had two days of massive lag at a major Australian ISP, killing half the tank and healing team (self included). I’m geared for pure EH with a side-order of avoidance where the socket bonuses make it worthwhile, no threat gear. AS is not glyphed (I run SoV/Taunt/Judge – prefer triple-target AS). Build is fairly standard – DG/PoJ optional points. Ping runs about 250-300 ms, I choose not to use LowerPing or other tunnelling services – they provoke significant unreliability in exchange for the better latency. I’d rather be connected 100% of the time @ 300 ms, rather than DC once every half dozen boss-fights but get 180 ms. DCs hurt me a lot – I’m a tank and I run the EPGP standout list which has to be re-done if you DC.

Issues pop up when I'm running with one hunter (or zero) and the rogues decide they're rather Tricks themselves, and they forget to change glyph to avoid threat issues. So just my pure personal TPS, with no boosting, or maybe one MD.
Spots I get pushed for threat are:
  1. On the pull if people are going flat out. My melee beat me to melee range half the time and instantly go into their pre-potted DPS rotation. My threat has a ramp-up time as SoV stacks. My initial rotation includes ability substitution dropping HS just to try and match their TPS, and I usually Wings on the pull. If I get 0-1 MDs and no tricks, a kitty with slow reactions is going to get his furry face ripped off.
  2. The other spot I tend to get pushed a little is Shadow Priests at Sindragosa - ours tend to run the bonus VE heal talent, but no threat reduction. Warlocks at BQL tend to chase real close as well.

“Pushed” does not mean “can’t hold aggro”. I get annoyed if people hit 100% threat, or if I’m having to use Salvation on people. No one’s actually died (except melee at Deathwhisper-hard who can’t watch Omen, or cats who ninjacatjump to the boss and follow it up with 2-3 big crits before I’ve even positioned the boss), but I am having to tell people to Shatter/FD or I need to use Salv on the geared SP. I did have a lock hit 125% on LDW before hitting shatter – apparently he forgot to turn Omen back on after doing arenas....

ICC is the first tier where I haven’t been able to have easy TPS superiority over DPS. People actually have to use things like invis/shatter/salvation.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby inthedrops » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:15 pm

You've mentioned threat problems a couple of times now, and I'm forced to ask - what kind of numbers are your dps pulling? Ours are generally in the 12-15k range, and I have yet to have threat problems, even running an overly fast 245 weapon most of the time.


knaughty wrote:ICC is the first tier where I haven’t been able to have easy TPS superiority over DPS. People actually have to use things like invis/shatter/salvation.


I think people will have differing opinions as to what concerns a "threat problem". I feel a bit like knaughty in terms of my TPS compared to the raid. But I don't consider it a problem at all. As long as it's not preventing us from killing bosses, it's not a problem.

Maybe it helps that our GM is a rogue. She knows when the tanks need threat and she would never sacrifice the good of the raid just to boost her personal numbers. Actually, our whole raid is real good about that.

Also, I'm very vocal in vent when someone starts riding at about 110%. Our hunters never seem to FD unless we ask. So I ask. And they FD 0.5 second after I ask. Although it is a distraction, it's not a big deal to me.

Speaking strictly ICC, with the exception of keeping hit and expertise high, I don't gear for threat.

I think this might boil down to a guild culture. In some guilds maybe the DPS gets vocal when they feel that their DPS is capped by the tanks, even if it doesn't matter. Ours is very good. I mentioned somewhere else, but I consider threat a team effort.

"Threat problems"? Depends on if it's causing a REAL problem. So far there has been nothing in many expansions where threat capping DPS caused a real problem.

Ans no, my threat isn't terrible. Rotation is acceptable, etc. This has been happening with every expansion since I started tanking. Tanks have crazy wicked threat....auto attack practically, then the DPS gets geared and we don't scale the same. DPS learns again to be careful, next expansion comes out an rinse repeat.

I got off topic. Back on topic, I am looking forward to a change like Vengeance. Blizzard has yet to find a good way to solve tank threat/mana/rage issues. Maybe this will solve them.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:37 pm

No one's "threat capped", other than at Deathwhisper. I’m still annoyed at my low TPS.

I'm pissed at the fact that people can hit 100% if I'm doing my job properly. I'm specced right, I execute the optimal TPS rotation pretty well. IMO, that should be enough that, barring gimmicks, no one can hit 90% of my TPS. Vengeance might fix this, but tying the scaling to stamina makes me think it probably won’t. DPS are going to have their output double across the tiers – I doubt my unbuffed stamina is going to increase by the same amount. Removing the easy +hit caps, and giving bosses resilience (or other crit suppression) is going to help – DPS are not going to scale as hard in Cataclysm.

Personally, I don't believe that use of Shatter/Invis/Salvation should be a standard part of normal play required for DPS to avoid peeling off the tank. IMO: The warlock should be able to stand there in a tank-n-spank fight, execute his maximal DPS rotation, and the tank should be able to peg him at ~90% threat assuming same gear and skill levels. If the lock has to shatter, tank-scaling is not tuned right. If a shitty tank can hold threat with a shitty rotation and worse gear, tank-scaling is not tuned right.

Wrath wasn’t tuned right. Threat was too easy in Naxx – Consecrate, auto-attack, AFK – and too hard in ICC - solo-tank TPS doesn’t exceed unmodified DPS TPS.
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest