Remove Advertisements

Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby knaughty » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:06 am

Tanking News

Vengeance: This new mechanic is designed to ensure that tank damage output (and therefore threat) doesn't fall behind as damage-dealing classes improve their gear during the course of the expansion. All tanking specs will have Vengeance as their second talent tree passive bonus. Whenever a tank gets hit, Vengeance will grant a stacking Attack Power buff equal to 5% of the damage done, up to a maximum of 10% of the character's unbuffed health. For boss encounters, we expect that tanks will always have an Attack Power bonus equal to 10% of their health. The 5% and 10% bonuses assume 51 talent points have been put into the <tanking> tree; these values will be smaller at lower levels.

You only get the Vengeance bonus if you have spent the most talent points in the <tanking> tree, so you won't see <melee DPS specs> running around with it. Vengeance will let us continue to design tank gear more or less the way we do today; there will be some damage-dealing stats, but mostly survival-oriented stats. Druids typically have more damage-dealing stats even on their tanking gear, so their Vengeance benefit may be smaller, but the goal is that all four tanks will do about the same damage when tanking.


For reference, my unbuffed health is 46k - [Vengeance] would grant 4.6k AP. Paladins get ~0.8 DPS per point of AP, my DPS would increase by ~3.6k.

AP is worth about 1.8 TPS per point, so Vengeance would grant over 8k TPS.

Methinks tanks will need some tuning if this goes live as described....
This isn't the "Offtankadin" forum. My MoP FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/FAQ-5-0
- Knaughty.
User avatar
knaughty
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3558
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:06 pm
Location: Sydney, plotting my next diatribe against the forces of ignorance!

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Boyfriend » Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:27 am

RF can easily be tuned down to reduce this, the biggest issue I see is off tanks not getting it and not being able to keep up with tps. But then most bosses are tauntable nowadays and otherwise blizzard just has to ensure offtanks get hit by something.
Image
User avatar
Boyfriend
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 588
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:16 am
Location: Sweden

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Minarva » Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:56 am

Also remember that we are going to have a fair bit more health at 85. We will also see less strength on our gear I believe, so this may become somewhat more of the majority of our threat.
Minarva
 
Posts: 123
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 12:58 pm

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Iselian » Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:36 am

At 80, in our current gear, it may seem silly at times. That said, I think many of us remember 3.0 and the fun times our dps had discovering AoE abilities once more. When we reach 85 and whatever the new raid-minimum health will be, we might find ourselves lacking in the strength department, or needing that extra dps/tps to keep up with our dps'.. well, dps. The coefficients might be adjusted (if 100k becomes the new minimum, then we're getting a passive 10k AP) but right now all that matters is the concept, which I like.
Iselian
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Meloree » Fri Apr 09, 2010 7:26 am

knaughty wrote:Tanking News

For reference, my unbuffed health is 46k - [Vengeance] would grant 4.6k AP. Paladins get ~0.8 DPS per point of AP, my DPS would increase by ~3.6k.

AP is worth about 1.8 TPS per point, so Vengeance would grant over 8k TPS.

Methinks tanks will need some tuning if this goes live as described....


Tank DPS is targetted at roughly 50% of a full DPS. In ICC we've fallen down to around 30%.

At least, I do somewhere around 4500 dps, and the DPS do somewhere between 12-15k. On the other hand, I'm pretty close to fully geared up, and they aren't. Another 3600 dps seems almost exactly right.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:09 am

Meloree wrote:Tank DPS is targetted at roughly 50% of a full DPS. In ICC we've fallen down to around 30%.

At least, I do somewhere around 4500 dps, and the DPS do somewhere between 12-15k. On the other hand, I'm pretty close to fully geared up, and they aren't. Another 3600 dps seems almost exactly right.

I do expect RF to be reduced slightly to compensate though. If we're doing 50% the DPS of a pure class, we no longer need a 252% threat modifier.

For comparison, right now at 4500 dps, you're putting out 11.3k TPS, which is slightly less than your DPS players' DPS. For classes with aggro reduction, that's about right, though you might rely on TotT spam or what not to keep afloat. If you add 3600 dps, we're now up to 20.4k TPS, well ahead of anything a DPS can generate right now without gimmicks.

Another thing that concerns me is the off-tank issue that was mentioned earlier. Our DPS as tanks won't be 50% of a DPS if we're not getting hit. I would rather it be a less significant factor - 5%-10% of our total DPS might not be bad, but we're talking about nearly 50% of our total DPS, potentially more if health is really going to increase disproportionately.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7763
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby ulushnar » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:15 am

theckhd wrote:Another thing that concerns me is the off-tank issue that was mentioned earlier. Our DPS as tanks won't be 50% of a DPS if we're not getting hit. I would rather it be a less significant factor - 5%-10% of our total DPS might not be bad, but we're talking about nearly 50% of our total DPS, potentially more if health is really going to increase disproportionately.


Surely if Vengeance applies to all tanking specs, then there'll be a way to ensure that even off-tanks get some damage worked into the fights, either via saber lashes, cleaves, hateful strikes or constant adds.
Be careful when you argue with trolls, lest you become one.
User avatar
ulushnar
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5442
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 6:56 am
Location: Bollocks, Scotland

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Meloree » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:19 am

Sure. But as far as a preview ability goes, it's a good start at getting the job done, and the numbers are almost exactly right for "while tanking" in this content patch.

I'm not honestly sure that the OT situation is one that Blizzard is at all interested in addressing. Also, with all the aura/raid damage that flies around in later raid tiers, I think the OTs will find Vengeance stacks up eventually, and stays stacked. I'm sure they're worried about full-DPS-gear prot dps if they don't make it reliant on taking damage, particularily in PVP. I don't think we'll see an OT solution to vengeance for that reason - OT's just have to live with being gimpy while not tanking.
Meloree
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1420
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:15 am

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:20 am

ulushnar wrote:Surely if Vengeance applies to all tanking specs, then there'll be a way to ensure that even off-tanks get some damage worked into the fights, either via saber lashes, cleaves, hateful strikes or constant adds.

Maybe, though that seems like an unnecessary constraint to add to the encounter designers. It's not like the mechanic is dynamic; if you're main tanking they expect it to be at 10% the whole time. So why buff tank DPS and limit your encounter designers when you could just buff tank DPS and be done with it?

If they want it to be dynamic, rather than forcing every boss to (cleave/tank swap/raid damage/DoT) they could just make it an offensively-refreshed ability like Divine Plea.

<edit> Didn't think about PvP, but they could make it trigger only off of boss mobs or targets that exceed your level (any raid trash or boss, but not players).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7763
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:21 am

At the very least, a void zone to stand in.
Image
The Seeker.
User avatar
Grehn|Skipjack
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Malorne

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby theckhd » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:31 am

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:At the very least, a void zone to stand in.

"But I lose DPS if I don't stand in the fire" suddenly becomes a valid excuse. :P
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7763
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:33 am

theckhd wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:At the very least, a void zone to stand in.

"But I lose DPS if I don't stand in the fire" suddenly becomes a valid excuse. :P

I was under the impression it already was! Am I the only one who stands in the laser beam during the HoS event for mana?
Image
The Seeker.
User avatar
Grehn|Skipjack
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Malorne

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby bldavis » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:34 am

theckhd wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:At the very least, a void zone to stand in.

"But I lose DPS if I don't stand in the fire" suddenly becomes a valid excuse. :P

maybe thats how the healers are having to cast more spells?


oh and ghren i do as well
sometimes for mana, sometimes just to piss my healer off :twisted:
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 7351
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:37 am

Sometimes my Pocket Priest will stand in it with me and spam Holy Nova to keep everyone alive. It's very pretty.
Image
The Seeker.
User avatar
Grehn|Skipjack
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 4529
Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 8:53 am
Location: Malorne

Re: Vengeance (tanking mastery)

Postby ulushnar » Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:43 am

theckhd wrote:Maybe, though that seems like an unnecessary constraint to add to the encounter designers. It's not like the mechanic is dynamic; if you're main tanking they expect it to be at 10% the whole time. So why buff tank DPS and limit your encounter designers when you could just buff tank DPS and be done with it?


Ok, well I'm only 10/12 in ICC10 currently, but the bosses all seem to have something to do that:

Marrowgar - Saberlash
LDW - Adds and Frostbolt Volley
Gunship - Adds
Saurfang - Tankswapping
Rotface - Offtank kites slimes, DPS unnecessary
Festergut - Tankswapping + splash damage
Putricide - Tankswapping in ph3
Blood Princes - Adds tanked
Blood Queen - Damage Mirror
Valithria - we one-tank this, but if you have two tanks, there's enough adds for both
Sindragosa - Frost Aura

So that's eleven different fights, each with a distinct ways of providing off-tanks with damage to fuel Vengeance. I don't think the Designers were constrained any more than saying "we need to give both tanks a role in each fight".
Be careful when you argue with trolls, lest you become one.
User avatar
ulushnar
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5442
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 6:56 am
Location: Bollocks, Scotland

Next

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest
?php } else { ?