New Tank Having Mana Problems

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New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Sallouminator » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:06 pm

So I'm new to the Pally Tanking ranks. I have all my Triumph badge gear, but im having issues maintaining mana. I constantly pop Divine Plea, have 1/2 in Spiritual Attunement (considering going 2/2), and I really just don't know what I'm doing wrong. SoW doesn't seem to help a ton and I'm always behind the mana 8 ball...which is hurting my tanking ability in the ICC 5 mans (especially HoR).

Any help in potentially solving this issue would be appreciated!

If anyone wants to check out my armory, my character name is Squallcat on the Tichondrius server.
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Chasey » Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:59 pm

Welcome to maintankadin, its loaded with tons of info.
I looked over your toon, everything looks ok, only 1 glaring problem, please don't gem for parry. Its a waste. You will pick up more info as you hang around here more. Read the gem and spec guides.

As for your question, pull more mobs, the more damage you take the more mana you get back. Pull faster, as long as divine plea is running you will be getting mana back. Arcane torent in a pinch, and this is probably the biggest thing, don't consencrate more than you need to, once a pull will do if even that. If there isn't a caster you need to silence just HoR the mobs, they will come to you and won't waste 1/4 of your mana with a shiled throw. You have the hammer glyphed so that is 4 mobs you have instant aggro and again conc won't be needed. As you get better gear and more experience mana will be a non issue, and if worse come to worse, have a mana pot on your bar.
Best of luck.
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Epimer » Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:11 am

Recent(ish) discussions on this topic: here and here.

The TL;DR advice is that Consecration is a mana hog and you don't need to use it very much on heroic trash, if at all. "Pull more" is common advice (although not always applicable and I think it's more important to know how to manage your mana when you can't pull more, such as in CoT, VH, scripted events etc.); the other is to keep pulling at a fast enough rate to ensure that Divine Plea isn't dropping off between trash pulls.

You don't have to equip an Int trinket or sit to take crits or take off items of gear or wear PvP gear or tank in Ret spec to ensure you have some mana in heroics, but each of these approaches does work to a greater or lesser extent. I prefer to manage my mana by assessing incoming mana vs. ability use, but even that's just a fancy way of saying "don't use Consecrate very much". :)
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Arcand » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:23 am

You're running Blessing of Sanctuary, right? Just making sure.

Get a threat meter - Omen, say - and see how your threat is. Being hugely
ahead of your DPS feels good but isn't strictly necessary, as long as nothing
breaks off you.

(I was writing this at work while multitasking, and didn't really finish this
thought - the point of the threat meter is to get sufficiently ahead of your
DPS, then either coast or switch to the next target. What's sufficient?
Take the bad guy's health and divide by three; once you have that much threat
on him you're probably okay and can stop burning mana.)

Also, mark kill targets. It's easier to stay ahead of a group that's focused
on one target chosen by you. Also, when the hunter gets mauled by a target
that doesn't have a skull on it, it's clearer that it was his fault. :)
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Sallouminator » Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:45 am

To answer all above questions...

Yes I've been using Blessing of Sanctuary. I usually use Seal of Corruption as well. I have Omen, but I know I need to get an addon for marking targets faster. I will definitely ungem parry, I honestly didn't know I had one in there...probably one of my first gems or something =)

It's been fun so far and I've been learning more and more every time I play. First alt as well...been a mage for 6 years and I decided to go huge or go home =)
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby cerwillis » Thu Apr 08, 2010 2:59 pm

LuckyCharms2 is great for marking, FYI. Some runs like H VH are particularly hard to keep your mana up, because you can't "just pull more". The generally accepted method would be to drop consecration from your rotation, and use divine plea on CD. Lately, I've just been equipping the 50 triumph INT trinket and my DMC:G (strength version) and I gotta say, that extra 2k mana (and ? regen) is a blessing to the lazy pally that doesn't like to "manage" mana. Finally, carry cheapo mana pots with you for emergencies, as it doesn't take much to fill your bar. Good luck, and welcome!

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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Eridian » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:17 am

Hi Everyone! I'm new to the forum, and so far love Maintankadin, great site!!

I have a question regarding mana regen and it's mechanic. First let me put you in perspective. I'm a veteran WOW player, started playing WOW in 2003. Started as a Warrior (MT for my guild at the time) quit wow in 2008 to try out new MMO's (AoC, Warhammer and Aion) now back to wow about a month ago. I have had toons of all classes pretty much and am an avid researcher, though I leave the theorycrafting to more dedicated individuals, I do my homework before starting a toon and continue to read and inform myself on the class on an on-going basis. That being said, I don't think I'm a noob by any means.

The scenario: This morning about 5:30am, I am dressed for work and have coffee in hand, 1 hour and change to play before I leave for work, so in group for daily random (I'm working on my Triumph badges as I just hit 80 with the pally 2 days ago), levelled Ret but respecced Prot to Main Tank (I love to tank). In a random group I go this morning and our healer is another Pally. Awesome I think to myself, this will be a smooth run no doubt. The run starts and no problems holding aggro and managing my mana, then all of a sudden Sacred Shield pops on me, I remove the buff and not say anything (as I had understood the mechanic behind the talent, you regain mana when healed, thus more heals= more mana, therefore being shielded to absorb dmg = less healing = less mana is this correct?) we carry on with trash, no problems holding aggro on groups of mobs, all is going well, until I got tired of being shielded by the pally because now my mana is getting low and I'm having a hard time keeping it at a comfortable amount... so I politely ask to please not use sacred shield on me, the pally asks me why? I respond because it's killing my mana regen. He lays into me calling me a noob, and to learn my class beacause he's geared in 10 man ICC gear and he knows what he's talking about... well! It was WAY too early in the morning and my coffee not even finished to be spoken to that way, so I told him to look up Prot Pally mana management and learn a bit more and told him I was not impressed with his gear and that any monkey can follow along and get emblems... I told him if he wanted to impress me, tell me all the strategies in Molten Core and BWL PRE-Burning Crusade when it required a serious effort of 40 people to accomplish the instance, back when it was actually difficult and challenging to be in an instance (sorry that's a personal opinion and no I haven't yet seen all the instances in WotLK and I haven't been in ICC, it may very well be a really nice challenge, so only speaking for the 5 man heroics at this point). Ok anyways, without ranting more, obviously the game has changed tremendously and I feel personally that it has become much easier in instances, nevertheless it is still my favorite MMO.

Ok nough about that, the question is... is my understanding of the mechanic correct? if so, then was I correct in the assumption that being shielded is not good? Obviously if it's to save your life, by all means, do so, shield me if I'm about to die and too lazy to throw a LoH on myself, but if all is nice and easy peasy and there's no trouble keeping me up, then am I correct in saying the shield is useless and detremental? I mean I don't yet have the best gear and so managing mana is very crucial for me, if I pull too much I will take too much dmg, as I'm only 502 def (and do very well with a half decent healer by the way, all this talk about a min. of 535 in heroics to me is a nice to have, but not necessary... taking crits to me as a tank is part of the game, and challenges your healer and his ability...) so basically I need to manage efficiently and make sure I have a steady stream of heals coming in (this ofcourse couple with steady up time of Divine Plea, I use critters as much as possible, but mostly the mages love to run around aoin'g all critters ahead of you... sigh...)... so there you have it!! My first post, and question and WHOA this guy sure writes alot... lol... sorry bout the long post.

Thanks for your input and again, love this site!!!
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Arcand » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:58 am

I don't have time to do all the supporting math right this minute, but Divine Plea and
Blessing of Sanctuary should be feeding you way more mana than your one point in
Spiritual Attunement.

If Sacred Shield is soaking, let's say, 2400 damage every 6 seconds, that's 400
damage per second. 5% of that is 20 mana per second while you're getting hit.

If you have 5000 mana Divine Plea will restore 83 mana per second and should have
pretty close to 100% uptime. Blessing of Sanctuary will give around 100 mana
every time you aren't hit by something, and can go off many times per second if
you tank big groups.

If you're squishy, your healer is going to want to have some healing 'banked' on
you so they can handle spikes easier. That means you'll have Earth Shields,
Sacred Shields, Renews/Shields and Rejuv/Lifebloom on you most of the time.
The shields will erode your mana a little but I say let them do it; it's your
low gear that's producing the slight inconvenience, don't ask others to eat it
for you. Bring some high quality water and you can top yourself off in seconds.
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Eridian » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:56 am

K thanks for the explanation, good advice.

Cheers! :wink:
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby rampage2922000 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:05 pm

As for the shields, if you find that disc priest that throws shields then it actually does restore mana to you every time you get hit. So the shield isn't all that bad. What I do in H VH or any instance where I am in mana trouble is look for those rats on the ground. :D devine plea at 3 seconds... run to rat, hit rat, devine plea refreshed. Also the cheapest water for lvl 70-80 works wonders for in between time.
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby theckhd » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:23 am

Just to get some numbers in here, from this post:
theckhd wrote:Assuming a boss with a 2-second swing speed after JotJ (this is actually slow, Vezax is 1.81 after JotJ), and a 6k buffed mana pool:
Every dodge/parry/block gives 6000*0.02=120 mana
Assuming your miss chance is only 10% and you're block-capped, you have a 90% chance on each swing of triggering this, so
120 mana * ( 0.9 trigger/swing ) * ( 1 swing / 2 seconds) = 54 mana per second.
Which is actually 270 mp5.

Compare this to Blessing of Wisdom, which is 92 mp5 (109 if improved). So Sanctuary is 2.5x better than Wisdom for mana regen even in the worst case (single boss with a slow swing speed). It gets rapidly better as the swing speed gets shorter or you add additional attackers.

A quick search of my old posts turned up this one, which talks about our regen mechanics and Benediction specifically. I'm sure I've done a more thorough post on it somewhere else, but I can't seem to find it at the moment.
Theck wrote:Divine Plea is roughly 125 mana per second, or 625 mp5
1/2 SA gives you 5% of your healing back as mana. That's 50 mana per second (or 250 mp5) for every 1k damage taken per second. A tanking paladin will be taking around 2-3k DTPS, so you're looking at between 500 and 750 mp5 from 1/2 SA. Double that if you use 2/2.
BoSanctuary: You gain mana on a parry/dodge/block (but not miss). Assuming you're block-capped, and your miss chance is 10% (likely a highball estimate), you'll be dodge/parry/blocking 90% of the attacks aimed at you. For a single boss with a 2.0 swing speed (which is slow, by the way - vezax is 1.8 after JotJ), that's 0.9/2=0.45 attacks per second. For a base mana pool of 4500, 2% is 90 mana, for a total of 40.5 mana per second, or 202 mp5.

So our 3 major mana regen sources give us 625, ~500, and 200 mp5 respectively, for a total of 1325ish mp5 or higher. 27 mp5 is 2% of this value, which means that in a raid situation each talent point in Benediction is effectively increasing our mana regeneration by 2% or so.

Again, not terrible, but not very strong either. Especially when you consider that you get roughly 23x more mana out of the 2nd point in SA. One point in Benediction will probably not make or break you on most fights, and probably won't be noticeable. The one nice thing about it is that it's always on, whereas SA is not (incoming DTPS isn't constant, it swings wildly due to avoidance, which means you'll generally get both health and mana topped off periodically throughout the fight).

Given those numbers, each point in SA should be around 500 to 750 mp5, which should easily cover for the lack of Sanctuary if you're actually taking damage, even without Benediction. That said, if you have a full-time ret to keep up HotC, you can move 4 points into Benediction for no threat loss (1/2 Imp Judge and skip HotC and Imp BoM.).

The numbers are a little out of date.
-Divine Plea doesn't scale with anything but our max mana, which shouldn't have changed much.

-Since bosses swing twice as fast, the BoSanc regen should be roughly double what I've given, so maybe 500 mp5 for a single attacker. Obviously if you have 3-4 or more attackers (i.e. heroic trash) it becomes noticeably better, and will be your primary regen mechanic.

-SA scales with damage taken per second (DTPS). For raid bosses, especially in ICC, it's going to be in excess of 750-1000 mp5, possibly more. In a heroic it will be fairly weak already, because your damage intake will be smaller. You'll probably rely more on Sanc and Divine Plea, because the minimal SA gains won't be enough to maintain your rotation even without shields.

So yes, shields reduce our SA mana gains, but that shouldn't prevent you from functioning in a heroic. More importantly, the solution to mana troubles in a heroic is always "pull more trash," because it improves both Sanc and SA mana regen (more incoming attacks and more DTPS). If you're still not getting enough mana back, pull three trash packs at a time instead of two. Whatever gives you a relatively steady amount of damage intake without becoming a serious threat to your party (i.e. spike death or aggro loss).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby Arjuna » Thu May 20, 2010 12:59 pm

I can just say that tidyplates and threatplates work really well when tanking! :D

can't live without them, you instantly see what mob that broke loose from you and can target and taunt back :)
HUZZAH! How many points do I receive? :D
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Re: New Tank Having Mana Problems

Postby bldavis » Thu May 20, 2010 1:14 pm

Arjuna wrote:I can just say that tidyplates and threatplates work really well when tanking! :D

can't live without them, you instantly see what mob that broke loose from you and can target and taunt back :)


omg this

i dont know how i managed to tank 5mans before i d-loaded Tplates! you can set the colors to different aggro levels, so you can see which mobs are about to peel off, which arent even aggroed onto you, and which are glued to your shiny metal(covered) ass

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
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