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Divinity for Hard Modes?

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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby chinoquezada » Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:59 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
SaintSin wrote:We cleared most of the trash up to Marrowgar with no tanking issues at all. After being kicked, he spent the next 10mins or so in trade chat looking for a tank, so it wasn't like he had a guildie he wanted to bring in & was looking for an excuse to kick me.


I'd be curious to know at what point that pug failed, because the leader is an idiot.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby theckhd » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:18 am

SaintSin wrote:So here's my question: Does anyone take this Tier 1 talent so seriously that they'd exclude someone from a raid -- and to keep on topic, is this going to be a requirement for Hard Modes?

No. I'm 9/12 on 10-man hard modes (admittedly in mostly 25-man normal gear), and so far Divinity has not been required at all.

Sindragosa and LK hard modes may be more demanding, but in my experience so far wiping on Sindragosa, it has more to do with healer coordination and luck. You're not going to get any heals when one healer is blocked, the other has unchained, and the third is not paying attention. It's also worth considering that as the tank, you're going to have a lot of unrestricted DPS time on the boss, so the boost to your personal DPS can be significant. Whether I spec Divinity or not for hard mode Sindragosa-10 next week will depend mostly on how we frequently wipe - this week it was mostly excessive raid damage from poor handling of Unchainged Magic, which isn't something I can spec to fix.

In any event, it's absolutely not required for normal modes, especially in a pug where you're not expecting to down LK or possibly even Sindragosa.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby exiledknight » Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:27 am

I personally feel like this is a fairly cut and dry choice, do you have threat issues? If not then what about using a 0/55/16 build which has both 5/5 divinity and Divine sacrifice, but dropping improved devotion aura?
Link is here:http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZE0tAbzMusIufdxfMobz

Now before we get up in arms over not taking the 3 points into improved devotion aura, this is something that is gear based, when I initially looked and played with this I was only losing .4% mitigation from physical damage(this cannot be done if you do not have a tree you can count on or a holy paladin spec'd into it as the overall 6% healing loss would be of huge consequence).

For easy of math we will assume a six minute fight, with a boss hitting for 10k on a 1.5 second swing timer
240 attacks x10k=2,400,000 damage taken

Now with imp Devo Aura
240x(10,000x.996)=2,390,400

So over a six minute fight(in mostly ICC 25 gear) all we would be mitigating is 9,600 damage if I am doing this correctly, which at that point I can so no instance where 2% more healing or having the raid wall would come out behind. Personally I am willing to sacrifice my own dps and tps, provided I can still maintain threat for more survivability, granted it is nothing huge but it could be enough to save a wipe if a healer d/c's, lags, or has their head up their ass.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby Rhiannon » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:40 pm

Your math is off. You can't just multiply by 0.996 if the difference in damage reduction appears to be 0.4% when comparing the "reduces physical damage by x%" numbers.

3/3 imp devotion aura is 602 armor.

DR% = Armor / (Armor + (467.5 * AttackerLevel - 22167.5))

Say I've got 35,000 armor with unimproved devo.

DR% = 35,000 / (35,000 + (467.5 * 83 - 22,167.5))

= 35,000 / (35,000 + 16,635)

= 67.78%

With improved devo I have:

DR % = 35,602 / (35,602 + 16,635) = 68.15%

The difference between these two figures is 0.38%, but if you say that improved devotion aura is reducing the damage you take by 0.38% relative to devotion aura you're misapplying the number:

A 100k swing post other sources of damage reduction hits for 32.22k with normal devotion aura, and 31.85k with improved.

31.85 / 32.22 = 98.85%, so improved devotion aura is reducing the damage you take by 1.15% relative to normal devotion aura.

Or to put it in simple terms, if the armor cap of 75% DR didn't exist and you were able to somehow get up to the high 90%s in damage reduction from armor, comparing 99% damage reduction and 99.4% damage reduction, it's obvious that it's not just 0.4% difference. With 99% you'd take 1% damage, with 99.4% you'd take 0.6% damage. That 0.4% in this case is making hits 40% smaller.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby Dravan » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:22 am

In my experiance of both 10 and 25 man heroics (I have done 11/12 10m and 10/12 25m) if a tank dies its because he isn't getting healed. I wouldn't say taking Divinity is a bad idea, infact I hadn't really considered it until reading this thread, but to say it is essential is stupid.

For instance, say on Sindrigosa 25 HM. She is meleeing for 20-30k pretty fast and if she parries your in trouble. Having a 3% boost on healing is nice, but realistically if you are going to die due to lack of healing, that 3% is only going to make a marginal difference.

Don't get me wrong, I believe the tanks role is to reduce damage it takes/boost the healing it takes as much as possible. But except for in a very rare case I can't see it being a difference between life and death.

I like crusade because it is a TPS boost and on fights like BQ where you want your tanks the top 2 on threat its very useful. I got holy as my secondary spec so can only really afford to have the one spec, though I obviously do respec for certain fights if needed.

The guy that kicked you for not having divinity is retarded. Up until the recent warrior buff paladin tanks have been kick ass in ICC hardmodes, not sure if the recent changes will bring warriors more in line (we only use warrior and paladin tanks can't comment on the other classes).
Last edited by Dravan on Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:23 am

Rhiannon is correct. For Imp. Devo, you should be multiplying by something like 0.9885, not 0.996. So it comes out to 2,372,400, or 27.6k damage prevented.

To make a comparison to divinity, for 3% of your healing intake to be 27.6k damage, you would need to be healed for 920k over the course of a fight, which seems reasonable. A quick glance at a few random 25N Marrowgar parses seems to show that the damage taken is in the 900k range. 25H seems to be in the 140k range, while 10H is around 950-975k.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby exiledknight » Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:48 am

Ah thank you for the correction, I did not realize I did it that quickly and thus incorrectly. For normal modes then it is more of a toss up for earlier bosses and even on later bosses Divinity seems to come out ahead, on 25 man hard modes damage is much greater, although like everyone has really stated even full 5/5 divinity is not going to save anyone from a healer not healing.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:02 am

exiledknight wrote:Ah thank you for the correction, I did not realize I did it that quickly and thus incorrectly. For normal modes then it is more of a toss up for earlier bosses and even on later bosses Divinity seems to come out ahead, on 25 man hard modes damage is much greater, although like everyone has really stated even full 5/5 divinity is not going to save anyone from a healer not healing.


The more likely place to drop points for Divinity would be Crusade anyway, I think. And there you'd have to compare that 3% healing to how much damage you "erase" by ending the fight shorter thanks to the 6.09% personal DPS (or approx 250-300 DPS) boost. If the boss is hitting you for 10k a pop and you can remove 3 or 4 successful attacks by making the fight shorter, Crusade might still win out (though I doubt it, and it wouldn't address spike survivability at all).
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby Raivnor » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:23 pm

I'm going to lean on the primary point that swayed me from thinking about Divinity the last time this discussion came up:

No other tank has a talent like Divinity.

We already mitigate better than any other tank save a very dumb DK who traded survivability for any form of threat whatsoever. If we can't survive the boss hits without Divinity, then nobody can and nerfs are presumably incoming. There is no way this talent can be considered mandatory.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby Meloree » Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:30 pm

Mandatory - no, certainly not. I went 11/12 in 10s and 25s HMs without it, and never missed it.

I specced into Divinity for LKHM pulls, both 10 and 25. I'm almost positive it saved my life at least once on the kill. I know it saved my life on a number of attempts. Would we have killed it tonight without Divinity? Maybe, maybe not. It's an expensive talent for the gain. I gave up Crusade, 1pt of PoJ, and 1pt of Conviction to get it. That's enough DPS to make a noteable impact on the kill time, given all the dps overhead. That DPS might have gotten us the kill on an earlier pull - although I don't think so. I don't regret the choice.

In every other fight, though, I don't think it's optimal to choose Divinity.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby cds4850 » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:06 am

Meloree wrote:Mandatory - no, certainly not. I went 11/12 in 10s and 25s HMs without it, and never missed it.

I specced into Divinity for LKHM pulls, both 10 and 25. I'm almost positive it saved my life at least once on the kill. I know it saved my life on a number of attempts. Would we have killed it tonight without Divinity? Maybe, maybe not. It's an expensive talent for the gain. I gave up Crusade, 1pt of PoJ, and 1pt of Conviction to get it. That's enough DPS to make a noteable impact on the kill time, given all the dps overhead. That DPS might have gotten us the kill on an earlier pull - although I don't think so. I don't regret the choice.

In every other fight, though, I don't think it's optimal to choose Divinity.

So, humor me here as I am at work and unable to access armory... do you grab a point in improved HoJ for Valk stuns?
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby Meloree » Fri Apr 02, 2010 11:46 am

cds4850 wrote:
Meloree wrote:Mandatory - no, certainly not. I went 11/12 in 10s and 25s HMs without it, and never missed it.

I specced into Divinity for LKHM pulls, both 10 and 25. I'm almost positive it saved my life at least once on the kill. I know it saved my life on a number of attempts. Would we have killed it tonight without Divinity? Maybe, maybe not. It's an expensive talent for the gain. I gave up Crusade, 1pt of PoJ, and 1pt of Conviction to get it. That's enough DPS to make a noteable impact on the kill time, given all the dps overhead. That DPS might have gotten us the kill on an earlier pull - although I don't think so. I don't regret the choice.

In every other fight, though, I don't think it's optimal to choose Divinity.

So, humor me here as I am at work and unable to access armory... do you grab a point in improved HoJ for Valk stuns?


No, rotated with the bear. I would have, if we'd taken the DK tank.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby inthedrops » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:15 pm

I'm 11/12 in ICC 25 man heroic. Tanked each of them in one aspect or another, and I've never put a point into Divinity.

If I wanted to pickup Divinity, there's no way I'm dropping Divine Guardian for it. This would mean my options are to drop 3 points from Crusade, 1 point from Seal of Command (which is fine, not critical for anything), and 1 point from Touched by the Light or Pursuit of Justice. Vindication is a high priority to keep.

To lose any of these on their own, it's not so bad I guess. But in order to have 5 points into Divinity it's just not worth it to me.

I'm thinking heroic LK might make me actually spec into Divinity :) We'll have to see what my role is for the fight when we start trying.

Edit: I just read Meloree's post and I unnecessarily repeated what he/she said. But it's nice to know that others in a similar position as myself had the same thoughts (and that it works for 10H, I don't run 10's except when they are desperate)
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby Lionnis » Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:00 am

Choosing divinity is something you need to look at in your healing core structure, if you have more then 1 holy paladin it's probably not really worth it. If your healing structure is made up of mostly reactive healing and HOTs then it may be something you want to look into. I did play with this for a while and scavenged the logs for comparison. I definitely noticed it would help during some of the 25 HM encounters where damage was DOT-like and pulsing. However with our recent addition of a 2nd holy paladin, i'm noticing that it's just adding to the over healing bombs and i'll probably be speccing out of it and playing with some other utility stuff especially with 25HM LK coming up soon.
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Re: Divinity for Hard Modes?

Postby knaughty » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:05 am

I didn't pick up Divinity until we got serious about Heroic-LK-25, then I picked it up.
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