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Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby d503 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:16 pm

jere wrote:I use the unglyphed HoSalv on myself during Festergut when the other tank takes over. It typically lets me go full out dps as the 2nd tank, even with 9 stacks of the debuff. As soon as Fester is taunted off of me, I put HoSalv on myself and go to town.


Turning off RF is not enough? I've never pulled aggro by turning off RF and going "buck-wild." That let's me use Glyph of Salv as an additional cooldown for 3 inhales, and I can save DS/DG for Pungent Blight, in case some webbed-fingered friends forgot to get inoculated.

Tell your co-tank to put on his daddy pants! ;P
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby jere » Tue Mar 30, 2010 6:00 pm

d503 wrote:
jere wrote:I use the unglyphed HoSalv on myself during Festergut when the other tank takes over. It typically lets me go full out dps as the 2nd tank, even with 9 stacks of the debuff. As soon as Fester is taunted off of me, I put HoSalv on myself and go to town.


Turning off RF is not enough? I've never pulled aggro by turning off RF and going "buck-wild." That let's me use Glyph of Salv as an additional cooldown for 3 inhales, and I can save DS/DG for Pungent Blight, in case some webbed-fingered friends forgot to get inoculated.

Tell your co-tank to put on his daddy pants! ;P


Turning off RF is typically overkill. A simply HoS on yourself is sufficient typically, unless your cotank just has a bad string of luck in his/her hits. If you want to do it to save the glyphed HoS cooldown, that's fine. Wasn't saying you should or shouldn't. My co-tank does very well on threat (hence why hand of salv is sufficient). I have never had a reason to use the Glyphed HoS on Festergut. I only go through 1 "third inhale" before he dies. Usually, DS, Trinkets, and DG/AD are sufficient for that, though there isn't anything wrong going with an extra cooldown.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby Yelena » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:06 pm

jere wrote:Turning off RF is typically overkill. A simply HoS on yourself is sufficient typically, unless your cotank just has a bad string of luck in his/her hits. If you want to do it to save the glyphed HoS cooldown, that's fine. Wasn't saying you should or shouldn't. My co-tank does very well on threat (hence why hand of salv is sufficient). I have never had a reason to use the Glyphed HoS on Festergut. I only go through 1 "third inhale" before he dies. Usually, DS, Trinkets, and DG/AD are sufficient for that, though there isn't anything wrong going with an extra cooldown.

I generally save Divine Guardian for Pungent Blight, in 25H it can save people who somehow managed to miss a spore (dodging Malleable Goo, asleep at the helm, w/e). I keep a glyphed Salv ready in case I need another cooldown at three stacks of inhale, but when you figure the raid comp, there's usually plenty external cooldowns available.

I tank the boss during the first 3-stack/Pungent, and simply cancel Righteous Fury after the swap, it's easy enough to rebuff before needing to step back in. By the time the second 3-stack comes around, Forbearance is falling off, so in the event we lose the other tank I can pick the boss back up and bubble off what's left of my Gastric Bloat, using Hand of Salvation in place of Divine Protection.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby jere » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:46 pm

Yelena wrote:but when you figure the raid comp, there's usually plenty external cooldowns available.

We also use external cooldowns a lot in this encounter. That's why I tend to deviate towards HoS on myself rather than cancelling RF. With all my macro slots filled, it's just easier for me to pop my HoS key than it is to right click the buff or type out the line. Plus I tend to pop HoSac on the other tank at 3 stacks, so I like having RF up for that little bit of damage reduction. Again, it's all just personal preference. I was just bringing up one of the things I like to have HoSalv for. It could be totally not optimal for you or someone else...just what I like doing and it works fine.

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't even have mentioned it as it was a sidebar kind of comment after the thread got answered. Even if the thread has finished, all I got from it is someone (not you) making fun of my cotank. I should probably learn to just keep things like that to myself to avoid stuff like that in the future. I was just chatting up the thread abit since the question got answered.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby cds4850 » Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:23 pm

I've linked Marblehead's macros before, but given the direction of this thread it seems worthwhile to do so again:

Marblehead wrote:I'd like to share 2 macros I use while tanking raid bosses that require tank swapping, like Saurfang, Festergut, etc.
These macros don't help tanking, but they increase DPS, helping with enrage times, slacking dpsers or hitting the top places in WoL rankings :twisted:


"Off" macro:

/cancelaura Righteous Fury
/cast [@player] Hand of Salvation
/cast Avenging Wrath
/equip Gutbuster
/equip Libram of Valiance

This macro is used when another tank taunts the boss you are tanking. It cancels RF, casts HoS on self and AW and equips a DPS weapon and libram, enabling you to continue damaging the boss for more damage than before without snapping aggro from the current tank.
*The red letters are just an example and you can change them to your weapon and libram of choice.


"On" macro:

/cast Righteous Fury
/cast Hand of Reckoning
/equip Honor of the Fallen
/equip Libram of Defiance

This macro is used to taunt the boss off of the other tank. It cast HoR, RF (cause it got canceled by the previous macro) and equips a tanking weapon and libram.
*The red letters are just an example and you can change them to your weapon and libram of choice.


The good thing is that these macros do all that using a single GCD.
The bad thing is that if they are used during a GCD they won't function fully till pressed while off the GCD.


These are awesome for tank swap encounters when aggro can be touchy (ie - maximizing your buff/DPS while not tanking Festergut.)
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby Awyndel » Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:15 pm

When tanking festergut 25 heroic i really recommend covering the full duration of the 3 stack with as many of your own cd's as possible. This means you need shield wall, hand of salvation and dg, and then maybe a trinket. You might even need a PS or Hosac there to cover the full time. Ofc you can time the DG in the end to also cover the exhale.

But seriously the holy paladins can be asigned to doing DG and AM every exhale, so you don't have to do that.

And wasting salvation because you are too lazy to make a cancelaura macro for RF is not smart imo ( no offence intended ) . Besides, your rets can be asigned to salvation on both tank swaps to make it safe to use threat reducing cooldowns.

As for the tank swap macros. Yes it can be a good idea to swap to more dps when off tanking. Generally I prefer to keep Rf and all my tank gear on, just to be on the safe side if something goes wrong. I do regularly swap librams.

But I swap librams for a lot more then tank switches. I have macros for all the seal and libram combinations i use, and switch them depending on the amount of targets there are, if i need snap agro or not, and if i want more dodge or not.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby Kelaan » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:48 am

Awyndel wrote:When tanking festergut 25 heroic i really recommend covering the full duration of the 3 stack with as many of your own cd's as possible. This means you need shield wall, hand of salvation and dg, and then maybe a trinket. You might even need a PS or Hosac there to cover the full time. Ofc you can time the DG in the end to also cover the exhale.


I completely agree, but this depends heavily on how pro your other raid members are at doing them. In THEORY one could have ret paladins chaining hand of sacrifice on the tanks (or AM and DG, etc). In practice, I rarely see it in my raids. We get a pain suppression, but that's pretty much it.

For three breaths, we do bubble wall, call for a pain suppression, and then at the end use trinkets and/or guardian spirit. I use the 6 second DG cooldown when I swap in because we've had more wipes than I'd like on tank transitions.

I'll try to remember to save it for P3 putricide transitions, too.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby Yelena » Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:21 pm

It ultimately boils down to how good the raid's synergy is, as to which method ultimately works best for it. I communicate with the healers and other Paladins in the raid a lot, before and during fights; if I need an external cooldown, for whatever reason, I can get it on a moment's notice, often times without needing to say anything.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby cds4850 » Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:07 pm

Awyndel wrote:And wasting salvation because you are too lazy to make a cancelaura macro for RF is not smart imo ( no offence intended ) .


Really?

No offense taken, I'll just continue to be "lazy" and "not smart" as these macros do not preclude me from utilizing my HoSalv as a cooldown. I could just as easily remove that line from the macro, but as it stands I rotate DS, PS, GS, then holy paladin raid wall for the end of the phase and pungent blight. The macro makes for a one button weapon and libram swap, AW cast, and RF cancel. I can't help but think it's the best way to get all four of those things done, where a cancel aura macro for RF does nothing to maximize your DPS with a 9stack buff.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby Awyndel » Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:32 pm

cds4850 wrote:
Awyndel wrote:And wasting salvation because you are too lazy to make a cancelaura macro for RF is not smart imo ( no offence intended ) .


Really?

No offense taken, I'll just continue to be "lazy" and "not smart" as these macros do not preclude me from utilizing my HoSalv as a cooldown. I could just as easily remove that line from the macro, but as it stands I rotate DS, PS, GS, then holy paladin raid wall for the end of the phase and pungent blight. The macro makes for a one button weapon and libram swap, AW cast, and RF cancel. I can't help but think it's the best way to get all four of those things done, where a cancel aura macro for RF does nothing to maximize your DPS with a 9stack buff.


Ooh, dude that wasn't aimed at your macro's at all. I'm sure they are exactly tailored to your dps needs and you can change them for the situation like you said.

It was aimed at Jere blowing his own hand of salvation on a tank swap instead of saving it for a cooldown for tanking the 3 stack. And no, I meant no offence, I respect his input, I just think doing this is silly :P .
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby jere » Fri Apr 02, 2010 4:47 am

Awyndel wrote:It was aimed at Jere blowing his own hand of salvation on a tank swap instead of saving it for a cooldown for tanking the 3 stack. And no, I meant no offence, I respect his input, I just think doing this is silly :P .


That's alright, everyone's input is appreciated. I think canceling RF is just as silly and overkill. It's all about opinion. There's absolutely no need to even glyph HoS on the stuff I was talking about. Perhaps in heroic mode, but definitely not normal. Shoot, depending on our group, we don't always make it to the 2nd set of 3 inhales before he dies, so I don't even need cooldowns sometimes. However, if someone wants to do it, that doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It's just differing opinions.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby Awyndel » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:15 pm

Yeah strictly talking heroic here. You want all the cooldowns you can get to play it safe.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby inthedrops » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:27 am

I'm a big fan of the salv glyph. But I typically use it for short moments where I only need to eat one hit. Soul Reaper, and for 25H Sindragosa her frost breaths. Rotface is one of the exceptions where on heroic you will have TONS of threat and can safely use it during a 3x inhale.

One fight that can get a little risky is heroic Saurfang. You definitely need to communicate with your co-tank if using it there.

The biggest thing is to make sure you never use it immediately after you taunt a boss from a previous tank.
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Re: Hand of Salvation Mechanics

Postby Kelaan » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:24 am

jere wrote:
Awyndel wrote:blowing his own hand of salvation on a tank swap instead of saving it for a cooldown for tanking the 3 stack.

That's alright, everyone's input is appreciated. I think canceling RF is just as silly and overkill.


I've noticed that my DPS with 9 stacks of Festergut's debuff, I do far more TPS than my co-tank... but I do less than him if I turn off Righteous Fury. If I want him to hold onto it, once he taunts I can basically just turn off RF and continue as normal. I don't really need HoSalv to keep from overtaking him, and re-enabling it once he gets to six or seven stacks works quite well.

After a tank swap, though, I have not yet figured out how to use Salv as a defensive cooldown. If I do it after I taunt, I am now 20% below the old tank, who is now tanking again. If I do it before I taunt, I'm still generating negative TPS... but at least the initial hit of threat isn't as bad. The later in the fight this is, the more pronounced the effect.
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