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[DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

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[DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby cds4850 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:13 am

After tanking for an expansion and a half, I'm accustomed to hunter and warlock aggro being at the top of the charts. However, in my new raiding setup I have a frost deathknight whose threat is off the charts.

Can anyone direct me to some reading sources so that I can get a better understanding for deathknights? I haven't rolled one yet, so I'm not too familiar with their talent trees, threat reduction abilities/talents, etc. All I know is that I'm not having nearly the threat problem with the unholy DKs as I am with this frosty.

For reference, the toon in question is Madrussian of <Keyboard Turners>, Kul Tiras-US. I am at work, and therefor can not link an armory. Thanks in advance for your input.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:35 am

Armory is offline for maintenance, so I can't look at his actual spec.

The issue is probably this: Unholy and Blood dps builds both take the talent Subversion in the Blood tree, which reduces threat in Blood Presence by 10/20/30%. The highest dps Frost builds sub spec fully in Unholy, and miss out this talent. With the 25% Haste and the off hand damage buff in 3.3.3, you're dealing with a large dps increase with zero threat reduction and no aggro dumps. If it becomes a problem, it might be worth asking him to take 1 or 2 points in that talent at a small dps loss.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby ulushnar » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:55 am

KysenMurrin wrote:The issue is probably this: Unholy and Blood dps builds both take the talent Subversion in the Blood tree, which reduces threat in Blood Presence by 10/20/30%. The highest dps Frost builds sub spec fully in Unholy, and miss out this talent. With the 25% Haste and the off hand damage buff in 3.3.3, you're dealing with a large dps increase with zero threat reduction and no aggro dumps. If it becomes a problem, it might be worth asking him to take 1 or 2 points in that talent at a small dps loss.


Pretty much this. When my DK was Frost, I used to get complaints from PuG tanks all the time when using my Improved Icy Talons spec with no Subversion. I also died a lot in heroic PuGs because of the lack of Subversion. :(

I wish Blizz would take the clue and bake some threat reduction into deep Frost. Guess it's one of those choices they're so fond of.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby fafhrd » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:14 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Armory is offline for maintenance, so I can't look at his actual spec.

The issue is probably this: Unholy and Blood dps builds both take the talent Subversion in the Blood tree, which reduces threat in Blood Presence by 10/20/30%. The highest dps Frost builds sub spec fully in Unholy, and miss out this talent. With the 25% Haste and the off hand damage buff in 3.3.3, you're dealing with a large dps increase with zero threat reduction and no aggro dumps. If it becomes a problem, it might be worth asking him to take 1 or 2 points in that talent at a small dps loss.


FWIW, it's not "zero threat reduction" even without Subversion. You have a 20% passive threat reduction any time you're in blood presence, which I assume he's using for DPS, since frost presence would be dumb and UH isn't helping him. Also subversion is 8%/16%/25% iirc, not 10/20/30. The only class with "zero threat reduction" are hunters and certain oddly specced casters who didn't spec into their passive threat reduction talents.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:25 am

You're right about it only being 25%, my mistake. I've never heard of any kind of passive threat reduction in untalented Blood Presence, however.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby blakk » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:31 am

Either keep salve ready for him or tell him to take a couple points in subversion. Killing machine, black ice, and if RP isnt a problem cotg are good places to pull a point or two. My dk has lots of threat problems too when the tank isn't pulling a flawless rotation so I sometimes have to skip frost striking when km is up to keep aggro under control.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby fafhrd » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:58 am

KysenMurrin wrote:You're right about it only being 25%, my mistake. I've never heard of any kind of passive threat reduction in untalented Blood Presence, however.


Every single melee dps class has a passive threat reduction, ranging from 20% to 30%+. Most of them aren't mentioned in tooltips or talents. You can test them quite easily though. Some of them don't apply to specific abilities (for instance whirlwind and execute aren't affected by battle/zerker stance threat reduction) but afaik all DPS dk moves are fully affected by relevant mods.

edit for exposition: the most common melee mod is 30%. With subversion, DKs are used to having more than 30% iirc (I forget exactly how Subversion stacks with the 20% from blood presence), with afaik the best passive threat mod of anyone. Without Subversion, DKs are back down to 20%, which is the same as arms warriors, which also have a lot of threat problems (but they are often saved from death by being a bit weak at DPS), i.e. the worst melee passive threat mod in the game. If anyone in melee range actually had 0%, it would be hilarious - watch a decent hunter on omen at the start of a fight to see what unmitigated threat looks like, and you'll quickly convince yourself that that 10k dps DK is not at 0% threat reduction.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:25 am

You learn something new every day. Good to know, thanks.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby ulushnar » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:37 am

fafhrd wrote:watch a decent hunter on omen at the start of a fight to see what unmitigated threat looks like, and you'll quickly convince yourself that that 10k dps DK is not at 0% threat reduction.


Surely a "decent hunter" would be using his Misdirect at the pull. ;)
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby fafhrd » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:35 am

ulushnar wrote:
fafhrd wrote:watch a decent hunter on omen at the start of a fight to see what unmitigated threat looks like, and you'll quickly convince yourself that that 10k dps DK is not at 0% threat reduction.


Surely a "decent hunter" would be using his Misdirect at the pull. ;)


Yes. And after those 4s of MD, they'll still do 100% of their non-pet DPS as threat, + any incidental threat from mana/focus gains and buffs/procs. I'm still at a happy 10-12k omen TPS at the end of p1 LK25 after MDing the tank on the pull. That is average threat over the course of the entire P1, the TPS for the first 40s while cooldowns and procs are up is higher (but it's not a problem because the tank just got a massive lead from everyone's tricks+MD, which we spend the rest of the phase eating through). If I weren't using a GCD every 20s or so on a tranq, I would feign. If I were a frost DK doing the same DPS without a pet, in melee range, I would just pull aggro and die without the option of MDing or feigning, since this TPS puts all our hunters just below the tank by around halfway through the phase, and a melee DPS could pull around that threshold.

I've actually pulled aggro a couple of times on my warrior from forgetting that melee pulls at a much lower threat threshold :/ The funniest was when I suddenly pulled aggro on sidragosa, and the tank said it was because he targetted me to put vigilance on me, and hence stopped generating threat.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby fafhrd » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:53 am

Someone posted a convenient bit of math recently on this btw, comparing the melee classes against the melee 110% buffer vs ranged classes and the ranged 130% buffer (I assume they're counting DKs that spec subversion though):

how much of the tank's threat you must generate in dps before you pull aggro:

melee

WARRIOR: 1.1 / 0.8 = 138%, WITH IMP BZ STANCE: 1.1 / (0.8 * 0.9) = 153%.
DEATHKNIGHTS: 183%.
CAT DRUIDS: 155%.
PALLYS: 157%.
ROGUES: 155%.
ENHANCE SHAMMY: 157%.


ranged

HUNTERS: 130%. (but they can reset to 0 whenever they like)
PRIESTS: 248% (uh... yeah...)
ELEMENTAL SHAMMY: 186%
BALANCE DRUID: 186%.
DEMO LOCK: 130%
AFFL LOCK: 163% affliction spells, 130% fordestro. assuming 66% from affliction, it's ~152%.
DESTRO LOCK: 163%.
FIRE MAGE: 144%.
FROST MAGE: 144%.
ARCANE MAGE: 217%.. yeah.

excluding spriests which are clear outliers, you can see that there isn't that much of a difference.

melee ~159%. range ~163%
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby ulushnar » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:46 pm

fafhrd wrote:I've actually pulled aggro a couple of times on my warrior from forgetting that melee pulls at a much lower threat threshold :/ The funniest was when I suddenly pulled aggro on sidragosa, and the tank said it was because he targetted me to put vigilance on me, and hence stopped generating threat.


It's bizarre. Back when I was playing my DK, I was the Warrior Tank's favorite recipient of Vigilance. Now that I'm playing my Hunter, I'm still getting buffed with it every raid. :/
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby Dakiros » Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:01 pm

High end unholy specs don't even go into the blood tree anymore with the new changes to frost so they don't get the threat reduction either.

Though to be brutally honest you still shouldn't have an issue staying above DKs on threat, tankadins are so OP with threat. If you're having issues you might need to look into what you can do to increase your threat generation rather than looking to him to lower his.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby Argali » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:19 pm

http://www.wowwiki.com/Threat has a list of the threat modifiers of every class, and you can see the ones that aren't mentioned in game.
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Re: [DK-PvE] Understanding raiding DPS DKs

Postby blakk » Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:43 pm

Dakiros wrote:High end unholy specs don't even go into the blood tree anymore with the new changes to frost so they don't get the threat reduction either.

Though to be brutally honest you still shouldn't have an issue staying above DKs on threat, tankadins are so OP with threat. If you're having issues you might need to look into what you can do to increase your threat generation rather than looking to him to lower his.

unholy also has a good portion of pet damage. so they still won't be doing the threat of a frost dk which does very little pet damage and only if they know what they're doing will they have any pet damage.(i've noticed most dks don't use ghouls unless they're unholy. DOH.)
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