Glyph of Salvaion

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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Vorianloken » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:10 am

Levantine wrote:Just a little caveat even though it's a bit necro, Death Knights have Icebound, AMS and one other cooldown that's spec specific. AMS is Magic damage only and Frost's talented Unbreakable Armor is Physical only.

My dk was originally cooldown oriented when specced blood - imp Rune Tap, mark of blood and then will of the necropolis and vampiric blood of course. Frost only gets UA while unholy gets AMZ (uber AMS) and bone-shield.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Dravan » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:55 am

Maybe I'm missing something but how are people managing to fit this glyph in? I'm currently using the 8% hit on taunts glyph, 3% damage reduction with divine plea and seal of vengence glyph. I don't have any survivability issues thus far, in fact the joke in our guild is 'paladin tanks don't die'. I have now tanked every single boss in normal 10 and 25, and 10/12 bosses in hardmode 10 man and haven't had a single issue moment, I've even managed to soak soul reaps on LK using trinkets and armour pots (dodgey I know). So really while I agree this is a nice glyph I personally can't see how its worth taking over any of my glyphs in a MT role.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:05 am

Dravan wrote:Maybe I'm missing something but how are people managing to fit this glyph in? I'm currently using the 8% hit on taunts glyph, 3% damage reduction with divine plea and seal of vengence glyph. I don't have any survivability issues thus far, in fact the joke in our guild is 'paladin tanks don't die'. I have now tanked every single boss in normal 10 and 25, and 10/12 bosses in hardmode 10 man and haven't had a single issue moment, I've even managed to soak soul reaps on LK using trinkets and armour pots (dodgey I know). So really while I agree this is a nice glyph I personally can't see how its worth taking over any of my glyphs in a MT role.


I have been soft-capped on expertise from gear for a good while now so I don't use the SoV glyph anymore.

For most of ToC my glyphs were taunt + DP + salv, when I actually got to be able to do anub HM then I swapped in salv for HW glyph and still use it.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:21 am

Dravan wrote:Maybe I'm missing something but how are people managing to fit this glyph in? I'm currently using the 8% hit on taunts glyph, 3% damage reduction with divine plea and seal of vengence glyph. I don't have any survivability issues thus far, in fact the joke in our guild is 'paladin tanks don't die'. I have now tanked every single boss in normal 10 and 25, and 10/12 bosses in hardmode 10 man and haven't had a single issue moment, I've even managed to soak soul reaps on LK using trinkets and armour pots (dodgey I know). So really while I agree this is a nice glyph I personally can't see how its worth taking over any of my glyphs in a MT role.

It's not uncommon for me to carry around a stack each of RD and HoSalv glyphs and swap them back and forth boss to boss depending on need. There are very few bosses where the RD glyph is necessary, just as there are very few bosses where the HoSalv glyph is necessary. Since they're both situational glyphs, it works pretty well.

Actually, there are arguably no fights where either is "necessary," though there are a few where each is "very useful." HoSalv was a lot stronger of a glyph before the current incarnation of AD and Divine Guardian, because it gave us an extra cooldown (remember when we only had one? The horror!). Now that we essentially have three options, one of which is automatic, HoSalv hasn't been quite as helpful.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby repent » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:16 am

I think Glyph of Salvation is incredibly useful during a few fights. During LK attempts, If the other tanks taunt missed, I can salv myself and it will protect me from the soul reaper + melee death and force threat to the other tank. During Sindragosa switches, it works much the same way, although threat transfers may be a little more complicated, it can ease the job of healers on the run out when threat is unimportant.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby kysu » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:52 pm

I run with it full time now but the only fights I use it are Sindragosa & LK. I used to use Glyph Avengers Shield, and used to weave it in for the big threat spike/pickup.

But for me atleast HM's are around the corner and I'll be damned for the reason of a wipe. I will not go down easy.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Levantine » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:08 pm

Vorianloken wrote:
Levantine wrote:Just a little caveat even though it's a bit necro, Death Knights have Icebound, AMS and one other cooldown that's spec specific. AMS is Magic damage only and Frost's talented Unbreakable Armor is Physical only.

My dk was originally cooldown oriented when specced blood - imp Rune Tap, mark of blood and then will of the necropolis and vampiric blood of course. Frost only gets UA while unholy gets AMZ (uber AMS) and bone-shield.

That you consider Mark of Blood and Improved Rune Tap viable cooldowns in a high stress tanking situation makes me lol.

PS Blood is terrible in ICC.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:08 pm

Levantine wrote:
Vorianloken wrote:
Levantine wrote:Just a little caveat even though it's a bit necro, Death Knights have Icebound, AMS and one other cooldown that's spec specific. AMS is Magic damage only and Frost's talented Unbreakable Armor is Physical only.

My dk was originally cooldown oriented when specced blood - imp Rune Tap, mark of blood and then will of the necropolis and vampiric blood of course. Frost only gets UA while unholy gets AMZ (uber AMS) and bone-shield.

That you consider Mark of Blood and Improved Rune Tap viable cooldowns in a high stress tanking situation makes me lol.

PS Blood is terrible in ICC.


The one and only time I have been in ICC as a tank was dw frost in 10man and since I have only gone in about 2-3 times as dps.

As for my blood spec, I always like having cooldown buttons to push and while it's different for everyone, when I had those buttons to push, they helped me a lot in fights like beasts and Jaraxxus when I started tanking ToC10 on the DK. Most people consider mark of blood and rune tap junk but I like having those buttons.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby kennywu » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:09 pm

PS Blood is terrible in ICC.


I'd like to know why you stated this. My main raider(Kennywu) is a Tankadin, but I have an alt DK(Pestílence) who's specd Blood for tanking. I do not spend as much time in ICC with my DK as I do my Tankadin. Even so, I have never had a problem tanking in there Blood specd and I've not received any negative feedack from the raid/healers of my DK tanking as Blood.

If there are facts/reasons why Blood is inferior to Frost/Unholy tanking in ICC, please present them. If sound enough I might consider respecing.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:38 pm

kennywu wrote:
PS Blood is terrible in ICC.


I'd like to know why you stated this. My main raider(Kennywu) is a Tankadin, but I have an alt DK(Pestílence) who's specd Blood for tanking. I do not spend as much time in ICC with my DK as I do my Tankadin. Even so, I have never had a problem tanking in there Blood specd and I've not received any negative feedack from the raid/healers of my DK tanking as Blood.

If there are facts/reasons why Blood is inferior to Frost/Unholy tanking in ICC, please present them. If sound enough I might consider respecing.


anecdotal fact + frost was favored due to its physical mitigation and such over blood which was just a soak is my guess /shrug

I haven't seen either frost or blood tanks struggle in there at all. Theoretical min/maxing bandwagon is to blame.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Folstar » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:44 am

kennywu wrote:
PS Blood is terrible in ICC.


I'd like to know why you stated this. My main raider(Kennywu) is a Tankadin, but I have an alt DK(Pestílence) who's specd Blood for tanking. I do not spend as much time in ICC with my DK as I do my Tankadin. Even so, I have never had a problem tanking in there Blood specd and I've not received any negative feedack from the raid/healers of my DK tanking as Blood.

If there are facts/reasons why Blood is inferior to Frost/Unholy tanking in ICC, please present them. If sound enough I might consider respecing.


Based off the 1 night I went Blood tank I'll throw out the following not very helpful points..

1. UA > Rune tap + Mark of Blood + WoN combined! +25% armor with 1/3 uptime is so sweet it blows my mind, reinstalls it, then is to cool to blow it a second time because its been done. 20% heal when my healers are showing me in heals is bleh/usually wasted, 4% per hit is nice and all but not even worth pressing usually, and WoN is a sad excuse for AD. VB is okay I guess.
2. BUTTONS?! Switching for single disease frost (go go HB glyph) to blood literally made my hotkeys explode, go on strike, the blow my mind because they don't mind that its been done. Yeah, that may be a lazy thing to say (it is) but when things start to 'get real' I like simple a lot.
3. 3% STA 5% STR v. 2% reduction, 3% miss... I suppose that could go either way
4. AOE?! ICC has trash, and that trash becomes a lot more fun with HB. Having a a good run of rime/km procs makes watching the damage scroll pretty wild too.
5. Acclimation? I know it isn't very reliable but it beat spell deflection... probably

So like I said, nothing really helpful- you're welcome.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Awyndel » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:40 pm

From my personal experience, our blood dk is doing just fine in icc with his extra long vampiric blood, and extra health. He gets the armor and damage reduction he needs from gear. Threat is also fine.

For me personally even the current version of will of the necropolis is enough reason to never spec out of blood. But after patch 3.3.3 blood is no longer optional anyway.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby superworm » Tue Mar 23, 2010 7:32 pm

kennywu wrote:
PS Blood is terrible in ICC.


I'd like to know why you stated this. My main raider(Kennywu) is a Tankadin, but I have an alt DK(Pestílence) who's specd Blood for tanking. I do not spend as much time in ICC with my DK as I do my Tankadin. Even so, I have never had a problem tanking in there Blood specd and I've not received any negative feedack from the raid/healers of my DK tanking as Blood.

If there are facts/reasons why Blood is inferior to Frost/Unholy tanking in ICC, please present them. If sound enough I might consider respecing.


This is a little off-topic, so feel free to ignore me.

Anyway I have tanked through ICC10 normal as a DK and find blood more to my liking. Theoretically frost is umber in physical heavy fights, which means most of the icc boss encounters. But in 10 man mode you can't expect consistent healing as in 25 man, and some self-healing is really nice here. And blood outputs more (single target) threat than frost imo. I do switch to frost in some fights, but mostly to supply the 20% haste buff (sadly we don't have an enchancement shaman even in 25 man).

As blood I have VB(15sec, 1min CD, 15% hp& 35% healing increase, which equals about 11% DR), IBF(12sec, 2min CD shieldwall) and 4pT10 bonus (12% DR, 1min CD),which should be enough. Self-healing is also quite helpful; with smart use of Death Strike and Rune Tap you could easily mitigate some spike damage, although it's post damage. Mark of Blood could not be relied on as a tank CD in most cases, but is good as a raid wide healing (before bone storm etc). And hysteria rocks when you constantly put it on your rogue.

As frost I have UA(20sec, 1min CD, 25% armor & 10% strength increase), IBF(18sec, 2min CD shieldwall)and 4pT10 bonus (12% DR, 1min CD). Frost also have better passive mitigation but lacks the self healing of blood. For me, 2% mitigation from a 40k hit(before mitigation) is 800, while as blood I could use Death Strike to self-heal 9k. However, as frost I could almost cover the whole fight wtih cooldowns, UA+4pT10+trinket=50 sec, then UA+4pT10+IBF=48 sec, that's something rocks in 25 man. But in 10 man, I don't find the need to do that and self-healing is my choice.

I guess nobody spec unholy to tank nowadays. It relies heavily on bone shield, which have a limited 4 charges. Although there is an internal cooldown of 2sec to remove 1 charge, and dot or aura damage doesn't remove charges, with 20% dodge decrease the unholy spec is hurt heavily. After all unholy doesn't have the passive mitigation of frost, nor the higher hp pool and self-healing of blood. Unholy may have some advantages tanking sindrogossa, due to its higher magic damage mitigation, but not something game-breaking. Other than that, unholy is mostly in disadvantage.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby Folstar » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:02 pm

Awyndel wrote:From my personal experience, our blood dk is doing just fine in icc with his extra long vampiric blood, and extra health. He gets the armor and damage reduction he needs from gear. Threat is also fine.

For me personally even the current version of will of the necropolis is enough reason to never spec out of blood. But after patch 3.3.3 blood is no longer optional anyway.


"Doing just fine" /ugh. I am unsure how the change to wotn makes blood "omfg must have". Frost still mitigates better and is getting a huge threat boost with the changes to IIT. Yes, blood just got a great talent upgrade, but it is by no means a nail in the coffin- if it was no one would use warriors/bears anymore b/c AD & WoTN are just so necessary.

superworm wrote:And blood outputs more (single target) threat than frost imo.


Nope. The change to icy touch might change this, though spamming IT in either spec would probably balance out at 'not as good as a real rotation'.

Your summary of blood v. frost CDs seems about right, though from what I've seen the majority of bloods self healing just amounts to overhealing (either from the DS/tap itself or the big heal that lands .1 seconds later). Both are good, but for different reasons.
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Re: Glyph of Salvaion

Postby superworm » Thu Mar 25, 2010 9:10 am

As I said, it's just my personal perspective, and I do spec to IIT to buff the raid and thus lose some points on the threat talents.

Another concern here is that with the gear progression sooner or later you will reach a point that your initial armor is so high that UA would waste some armor value. I sit around 37k+ armor now with full raid buff, and if I switch on the armor cloak (I'm not wearing it as the hit on prince cloak is sweet), get lucky drops with armor rings and put on another armor trinket, I could easily get above 40k+ armor. Without concern for threat now, I may even switch to duel-wield 2 crusader's glory, which is another 1k armor. I believe the armor cap for lv83 is something around 49k, in which point if you're above 40k armor, UA is wasting some of its value, especially in the 4min armor potion duration.
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