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Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:51 pm

Hokahey wrote:I think you mean Challenging Shout, but even that is only a "fixate", not a taunt, so after it wears off, the mobs will return to their normal aggro tables. Theoretically, if things are off cooldown, the Warrior is of relative gear parity with the DPS, and isn't too far behind on threat before using it, or there aren't too many mobs involved, or they aren't too spread out, getting them back in hand is fairly easy.


Shit. Yes, I did. And I genuinely forgot it's a fixate because when I hit it, almost always things stick to me thereafter. It goes Challenging Shout > Spike of rage from incoming attacks > Spike of ass-kicking by warrior > Aggro control established.

Which is the crux of the issue, I think. I know personally, while I assume that I will almost never encounter the same players more than once in LFD, their perception of my performance *does* matter to me. I know that, to a degree, some people will have a poor view of me no matter how fantastic my performance was, but I don't focus on that. I want most people to say, "that guy was a fantastic/good/decent tank, I'm glad we had him" after we part ways. It bothers me when a run feels "chaotic", as a matter of personal pride, since I view part of my role while tanking as giving structure to the instance and pulls, allowing the rest of the group to do their roles with as little interference as possible.


Totally agree.

AotD makes a pull feel chaotic, to me, and therefore I have a kneejerk hatred of it, but I've learned in time to let go of it in most scenarios, and the truth is it is a *very* powerful cooldown, just tremendously irritating when used stupidly/thoughtlessly.


Totally agree.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Boyfriend » Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:54 am

I normally tank adds on this fight, but I've never done it on 25 so maybe I'm missing something. How did this cause the adds to get behind the tanks? Were they running around in the mayhem and losing track of which mobs they had been tanking?


Well there's 4 adds, 2 adds per tank. Usually the 2 tanks are far apart from eachother and it's fairly clear which 2 mobs are yours. AotD made all of them move onto the raid clump. So now there's 4 unmarked adds on a heap, or well not a heap more like they're standing within 10 yards of eachother but not exactly on top of eachother.

So yes the tanks did not know which mob they had been tanking, and the adds were walking around quite randomly; it would have been quite fine if tanks were far away and adds would have gone back to them (I doubt they would have though). But we did not expect the ghouls to die instantly after moving the adds together, as everything happened very fast.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Tenaka » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:06 am

Folstar wrote:
Tenaka wrote: IDD, wierd thing is the time I took on Cyanigosa in a group of all clothies, bubbled mid fight and enjoyed the comedic benefit of watching the clothies torn to pieces, I found myself the only one laughing.


[I sliced this part out. Statements of the form "If (you think x) then (scorn and condemnation)" can get out of hand too easily. -Arcand]
^Revised version: There is a world of difference between bubble hearth and AotD, even AotD used improperly.


Indeed there is a world of difference. In this instance the biggest difference is that I never actually did what I said I did because, and here was my point for Folstar, it's funny for YOU but was it really funny for anyone else. (on reflection I should have put a disclaimer re not actually ever having the guts to piss that many people off by actually doing my example)

On the main subject though AotD does have it's uses, Folstar gave a good one in the post I hacked-up above. And how can anyone disagree with your reasoned points Arcand? Maybe however, those that hate it aren't remembering the clever DK that saved the day, maybe they're thinking of the DK that did it for s**ts n giggles, for their own personal funny, or for their DPS epeen, and be damned anyone who didn't find it funny.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Levantine » Thu Mar 18, 2010 3:08 am

Yeah I hate Death Knights too.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Folstar » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:58 pm

Tenaka wrote:Indeed there is a world of difference. In this instance the biggest difference is that I never actually did what I said I did because, and here was my point for Folstar, it's funny for YOU but was it really funny for anyone else. (on reflection I should have put a disclaimer re not actually ever having the guts to piss that many people off by actually doing my example)


Whether or not you personally have done the action is somewhat irrelevant. There have been cases of people bubble hearthing (I seen 'em do it) and cases of people using aotd at inopportune times (I seen 'em do that too!) so we can compare those hypothetical situations without having to fight over who is [edit:mean] enough to do either*.

Seeing as how they both could happen I think the biggest difference is actually that bubble hearth is intentionally wiping your group whilst aotd in this example on a heroics boss, even one with a frontal breath attack, does no harm (no one died the two times I've done it in VH) but does provide several benefits- higher dps (both aotd and the healer dpsing, maybe), something neat to see, and for some a little sense of ADVENTURE in what is otherwise a very, very, very boring run.


*I have done both.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:01 pm

Folstar wrote:does provide several benefits- higher dps (both aotd and the healer dpsing, maybe), something neat to see, and for some a little sense of ADVENTURE in what is otherwise a very, very, very boring run.

The higher DPS is meaningless - you're talking about shortening a fight by a handful of seconds at best.

The spectacle of it is about as neat to see as treants or ghost wolves, with the exception that those don't have to taunt off the tank. Unless tank nerd rage is what you're calling "neat to see".

One man's "sense of adventure" is another man's "sense of annoyance".

I wish Bliz would give people the ability to turn off the taunt on AotD. It would save us pages of discussion and make life better for all concerned.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Tenaka » Thu Mar 18, 2010 5:17 pm

Folstar wrote:Whether or not you personally have done the action is somewhat irrelevant.


Only for the purposes of emphasising your own point and avoiding mine.

As I said, the example was given not to highlight the potential a pally might have for annoying people, but to emphasise the point of funny for you != funny for others.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Dravan » Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:25 am

First for the original point, I personally don't see how DnD can ever be that annoying as even if the dk gets aggro from a couple of ads, presuming you have dropped your aoe bomb shorty after (e.g. consc, HoTR, AS etc) and use your taunt on the DK if he's pulled any aggro, he has simply made getting the initial aggro easier. On a large group of ads (more than 3, though realistically over 5) it will suck, but then if you tank heroics and raids these days you should be used to the dps dropping the aoe bomb on any group size no matter what and therefore should be used to dealing with it.

As for army, I agree it fucking sucks. Ok so its 'powerful' but on a fight with ads (perfect example is Lady DW) its annoying as hell. I'm the sort of tank that wants to be able to pick up and postion my tanking assignments where I want them to be, and see my ads as my responsibility thus anyone dieing from them is my fault (at least partly). Having army pulling them all off me and having them run all over the shot is just annoying as hell especially when the mobs being pulled can cleave.

Therefore I have to agree that its a good ability as long as the DK using it knows when its the right time to use it, but in my guild at least army these days appears to be that button popped on the pull without using much thought. Removing its ability to taunt I believe would be a great idea. Sure it is very occasionally useful when you have an 'oh shit' moment with ads, but losing the utility will save as many stupid wipes as it causes .

And yes I am a grumpy tank that gets pissed off with dps that pull mobs of me because they are attacking the wrong target/using the wrong ability :)

EDIT: Oh and bubble hearth is a defining feature of a paladin, and should never be removed. Nor should the commical value of its correct application ever be doubted !
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:24 pm

So on a run today in DTK, the DK who could only manage 1189 DPS for the run felt fully qualified to use AotD on King Dread. Granted, this isn't a bad fight to use it on except for the tank wanting to place the boss so the fear wouldn't create LoS issues, but aside form that it's not bad.

The incredibly massive, fight-changing damage done by said army was 3,990.

That's less than one second of damage done by the boomkin I was running.

By the way, this DK only managed 770 DPS for the last boss, which amused me greatly.

This is why I am not comfortable turning aggro control of the fight over to DPS DKs as a general rule, and why I don't instantly assume the DK in the run knows how to use AotD responsibly. Many of them simply don't know how to play the class, and don't know how to use their abilities.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby econ21 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:40 am

Now that I am more aware of Death and Decay, I can say that it never seems to be a problem. Army of the Dead, however, I am more ambivalent about.

The best use I have seen of it so far was in the Occulus, with the boss that can teleport to the centre of a ring and do damage to the party from there. With a very good party, I was in the process of slowly bringing him to a pillar (so we would be able to run behind the pillar when he teleports). The DK unleashed army of the dead and the boss went down without even getting off one teleport (surely more than 3990 damage? although it was a good group, so maybe not).

The worst use of it was with the ethereal boss in VH. I was trying to kite him up the stairs and over the ramp away from his orbs, but AotD completely prevented that. So, his orbs reached him, he teleported the party to him and unleashed major damage to all. In the end, only a well geared druid and I survived.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:41 am

econ21 wrote:The best use I have seen of it so far was in the Occulus, with the boss that can teleport to the centre of a ring and do damage to the party from there. With a very good party, I was in the process of slowly bringing him to a pillar (so we would be able to run behind the pillar when he teleports). The DK unleashed army of the dead and the boss went down without even getting off one teleport (surely more than 3990 damage? although it was a good group, so maybe not).


The last 3-5 PuGs I've run with were able to either blow that guy up before he teleported, or seconds after his first teleport, without an army...so I'm not sure that's great evidence for its power. Still, if you're not kiting him, it does sound like a reasonable time to use it.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:16 pm

I can't recall the last time he teleported.

I tank him him where he starts and nobody bothers to move for the lolfrost.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby rampage2922000 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:11 am

I never get aggravated on my druid or pally if someone uses army... I just pick up the left overs when its done. Oh no! Aggro is all over the place... not really, it's usually on the heals and I can taunt the targets off of them with pally or just charge in and (violently) grab my aggro back with bear. I don't really ever see it being a problem... as for rage/mana, devine plea for pallies and don't over do your attacks. Just keep it simple and conservative and wait to unload when it's over. Druid rage, I just keep hitting someone... that's about it. If someone is having fun using army, I let them. I can almost guarantee its going to be more fun then and I may just have something to do instead of let me just sit here and press 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 1 oh, wait! I ment 2! Right now I LOVE tanks who just bubble hearth or DI the heals... I only needed you to que so I could get my random daily in. If you want to sit down in back and let us go to town I'm all for it.(That is on my dps, like my mage)(These comments are made for heroics, not raids where people have to coordinate and make a time schedules. So wipes are actually a deep sigh and another beer)
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:57 am

rampage2922000 wrote:Oh no! Aggro is all over the place... not really, it's usually on the heals and I can taunt the targets off of them with pally or just charge in and (violently) grab my aggro back with bear.


I don't understand how Army's going to get anything on the healer. The bad guys are in a field of tauntspam, the tank is taking little or no damage so the healer's threat, not a big deal at the worst of times, is going to be even lower.

It seems to me a careless hunter or mage is in greater danger than the healer will be, and even then only when Army expires. And even then only if any bad guys are left alive.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Johalin » Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:26 pm

I feel that AotD can be very helpful when used intelligently, sadly it's not always used that way. But a good tank should be able to maintain control once AotD is gone and not have to worry about it for the remainder of the run. It's not much different than having over-geared, over-eager, AoE happy dps pulling aggro off you.
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