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EH List For Current Content

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EH List For Current Content

Postby Mogurii » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:25 pm

We have all been talking about reaching the EH minimum for fights for as long as MMOs have been out. With the current changes to game mechanics a la. Hellscream/Wrynn, and people getting to LK Heroic 25 and experiencing every known fight, I was thinking that it would be a good idea to construct a list of EH measures for individual fights in both ICC10 and ICC25 and their Heroic counterparts.

I know that I get a lot of tells from tanks in my guild when it is time to switch from Stamina to Avoidance/Armor for current progression raiding. This might be a great place to send people looking for some numbers to watch out for. Most EH numbers are calculated via addons so having a goal in mind would be very helpful for some people who are new to the EH mechanic.

These numbers would be the Burst Death Scenarios that would kill you because of the way you gear, and not take into account healer throughput. Numbers to reach would have to be high enough to reach the EH to survive the worst Burst Death Scenario in each fight.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Wrathy » Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:23 pm

This is something to consider, however I think it would be all dependent on the situation and what you are looking to achieve from the information. Is this list so that you know when you can stop stacking stamina and boost up more armor, is this something where you are looking for a clear cut hp/armor where you can shoot for, or, etc. I would have to go look at my gear set ups, however i can give you my general rule of thumb on progression fights versus far fights.

For ICC 25 Normal - all fights except Sindragosa and Lich King, I wear my Threat set.

Sindragosa - Frost resist set with 485 FR
Lich King - Pure Effective Health set, One armor one stam trinket (max bonus armor pieces, and max stamina).

For ICC Hard Mode - with the exception of Lady Deathwhisper and Sindragosa (attempts) in which I wear 500 plus frost resist, I wear my Full Effective Health set.

If you check my armory today 18Mar, you can see what my current progression max EH set looks like, and I wear the same set for almost all Hard Mode fights in ICC25. I can start looking at some parses this week to see what kind of hits I take on each of the 8 hard modes we have killed (hopefully one more after the weekend) and put up some "relative" numbers for hits and spike damage. However it is safe to say that I am on the precipice of necessary EH. I have died on occasion, and additionally watched my health plummet from 100% to sub 20% on many occasions.

When I get home from work tonight I will plug my stats into the tool i built which incorporates theck's TEH formulae in order to give you a rough estimate of my TEH on all 8 fights.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Mogurii » Thu Mar 18, 2010 1:08 pm

I think that you nailed exactly what I meant by my conjecture. I think that we need a list of all current content fights with corresponding numerical EH numbers so that tanks new and old have a guideline for their encounter gearing. As you said, tanks should be equipped to wear different sets depending on the encounter. We've got to have a resource, constructed as a community, that would let people know when the time is right for them to be able to switch out from their pure EH sets to say their armor/threat sets, to either help on the dps of the fight, or to lower the effective healing that you would require for that particular fight.

I myself have an armor set that is nearly armor capped with just Improved Devotion Aura. Do I wear it all that often? Sure, but sometimes I wonder if I should just stick with my high stamina sets because of the mechanics of the fight. I have a threat set that is very comparable to the one you posted that I almost never wear because I don't have any problems holding threat. Could I be wearing my threat set for a particular fight? Probably. That's what I want to construct, a list of values so that people have an idea of when to say, "Hey, I've surpassed the EH minimum for this encounter, as such I can switch out my trinkets as long as I'm still surpassing said minimum."

However, I am a busy college student ( :) ) and as such I simply don't have the time to construct such a list by myself. As such, I wanted to get some logs posted of Burst Death Scenarios and just use our general knowledge of boss attack values and when they come in Burst situations and how much EH you would need to survive that.

I for one think that this could potentially clear up a lot of peoples misconception of the EH standard that we use as tanks. And the Armor v. Stamina thread, and the Hellscream/Wrynn Buff thread have a lot of impact on my original idea.

What do the rest of you think? Any more Mod comments?
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Wrathy » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:42 pm

An aside to your comment:
Mogurii wrote:let people know when the time is right for them to be able to switch out from their pure EH sets to say their armor/threat sets


An armor set is, under the current gearing philosophies of ICC, an effective health set. You should always try to maximize your armor in your EH set, not as a set that you go to after you feel that you have broken the EH minimum. The correlation of armor to EH has been outlined many times over, and as much armor as possible will be integral in your EH progression gear.

I love the idea, but it would be a bit more complicated than just combing through parses for numbers. If you wanted a spreadsheet that literally said what the 1 hit, 2 hit, and 3 hit caps were for effective health, that is something that is very variable. For instance, I can comb through my parses, and look for average boss melee, and tell you what eh barriers are based off of that, i can also look at spike damage situations and show EH for that. However, both of those things are not independent of gear, and as a resource to all tanks, that would be hard to describe.

Festergut's Average Melee on me the last time we did him on normal mode was 17,687. I was the second tank, and as such I tanked a three inhale phase. The problem with this data is that it is very skewed. Since 3 inhale festergut is 100% physical damage, my armor is a consideration, my cooldown usage is a consideration, the ability for my paladins and priests to stack absorbs is a consideration. I chain cooldowns, I use armor pots, I buff up to 46k armor (3k short of the cap), I have Hand of Sacrifice on me, I have Disc Priests bubbles and Valanyr procs on me, this paints a clouded picture of the real EH.

If we want raw data, we have to extrapolate raw unmitigated swing damage. From there you can define effective health minimums to get a relevant data set to publish to the community. However, if we just want spike damage situations, the community can use the Tank Totals addon to compile spike death situations. My spike death situations are no longer value added to some of the community because all the bosses are on hard mode, making the numbers different.

If I were to have to make a guide regarding what you were asking, I would break down specifics of each fight where burst damage is most likely to kill you, incorporate said burst damage into a gear set philosophy, and gear accordingly. For normal modes for me, Threat gear is something that I have on all the time, this would mean that with proper cooldown usage, you can tank anything save sindragosa and LK with 40k hp and 30k armor unbuffed. However that is with my healing set up, my cooldown usage, and my strategies. Others may differ.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Meloree » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:03 pm

Here's the thing, though: The early ICC25 hardmodes aren't really bursty, at least by my lexicon. The "spike" damage all comes from several-hit strings. Even Festergut 3-stack only hits for ~140k raw, you're right on the borderline of surviving 2-hits unhealed without any cooldowns at all. To me, that's a throughput damage situation, not a burst situation. I draw the distinction because in every other tank-risk encounter in Wrath thus far, throughput damage has been a non-issue, and totally ignorable. ICC is very different. There isn't really burst to prepare for, it's just straight-up throughput damage.

In some ways, "EH minimum" doesn't really apply (LK excepted, haven't pulled it, still working on Putricide), because you can't help but exceed the EH minimums. So, armor is phenomenal for lowering throughput damage, with convenient EH benefits.

Does this make avoidance stronger? Yeah, actually, it does. Once we've pulled LK a few times and figured out what he does to tanks, I'll be looking at regemming to pick up all those socket bonuses I've been skipping. Will I ever equip an avoidance trinket? It's not really likely, I don't think it's picked up that much strength. The "all or nothing" nature of avoidance still makes it somewhat difficult to plan for.

Further, there's another 5% buff coming. Once again, that will push the gearing away from stamina and towards more armor and avoidance - at least until it gets big enough to start looking at 3-hit thresholds, but that's probably in the 20-25% buff range.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Wrathy » Fri Mar 19, 2010 8:02 pm

Meloree wrote:The early ICC25 hardmodes aren't really bursty, at least by my lexicon. The "spike" damage all comes from several-hit strings.


I'll give you that, and even to boot, I haven't encountered any real burst in the instance at all. If we are defining a trickle down death as anything over 3 seconds, I would think that the major source of tank damage is not so much burst but a trickle from too much raid/OT damage going around.

I can't speak for Sindragosa's frost breath, or Lady Deathwhispers frost bolts, but everything else seems fairly manageable.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Kihra » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:17 am

Saurfang at high Blood Power can do some impressive damage in hard mode. That's the only real burst I've encountered so far.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Reejin » Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:55 am

I am a weekend warrior/ non-progressive tank meaning that my guild and/or pugs I have been in have only gotten as far (as of yet) as Rotface in either 10 or 25 man ICC, no bosses in ToGc. I unlike Wrathy and many other more advanced paladins here at Mantankadin have only one set. I have done my best to create one Balanced Tanking Set. Since the only boss I am currently seeing on a week or once every two week basis that drops a token is Saufang I have decided to create my set using no T10 at all. This is the set I am in the process or building (80% complete).

Helm: Broken Ram Skull Helm (Austere, Shifting, Stalwart Protector)
Neck: Bile Encrusted Medallion (Solid)
Shoulders: Boneguard Commanders Pauldrons (Solid, Solid, Masters’ Pinnacle)
Back: Sentinels Winter Cloak (Solid, Mighty Armor)
Chest: Cataclysmic Chestguard (Enduring, Solid, Shifting, Super Health)
Wrist: Gargoyle Spit Bracers (Solid, Major Stam)
Weapon: Bonebreaker Sceptor (Accuracy)
Shield: Neverending Winter (Major Stamina)
Gloves: Gauntlets of the Kraken (Solid, Solid, Armor Webbing)
Belt: Verdigris Chain Belt (Solid, Solid, Solid)
Pants: Pillars of Might ( Shifting, Enduring, Solid, Frosthide)
Boots: Boots of Kingly Upheaval ( Solid, Solid, Tuskarrs)
Ring 1: Juggernaut Band (Solid)
Ring 2: Ashen Band of Endless Courage (Solid)
Trinket 1: Black Heart
Trinket 2: Corroded Skeleton Key

I do change my Libram for a few things.

Groups of trash: Resurgence (with Seal of Command)
Bosses: Defiance (Seal of Vengeance)

Def: 557
Health: 56289 (Raid buffed with Fish Feast)
Armor: 39869 (46925 with trinket proc)
Avoidance plus block minus Chill of the Throne: 85%
Hit: 246
Expertise: 26
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:36 am

Why would you use the dodge/def shoulder enchant especially in a balanced set for ICC where stam/armor are more valuable than avoidance (especially if you are not pulling hard modes). Half the bonus on the enchant is wasted as you are already significantly over the minimum defense for raids.

EDIT: You are also using Tuskarr's Vitality on your boots. If you are using the 53/18 spec (which you should be) then the run speed on TV is completely wasted. Get the 22 stam enchant.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Reejin » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:54 am

yes the Gladiators shoulder enchant is available to me and yes it is better EH but I am an inscriptionist, I desided to use what is only available to that proffesion. No I don't have the money to train a new one.

I spec'd Vindication vice Pursuit of justice. This was my choice, forums on the matter can go either way.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Iselian » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:46 pm

Reejin wrote:I spec'd Vindication vice Pursuit of justice. This was my choice, forums on the matter can go either way.


Or both ways. Your third tier in retribution can be vindication, SoComm and Pursuit of Justice (as I'm doing right now). You will have 0 in conviction, so there is a threat 'loss' but many would say it's worth the trade off.

(To list it, 5/5 Deflection, 3/3 Heart of the Crusader, 2/2 Improved Judgments, 2/2 Vindication, 1/1 SoComm, 2/2 Pursuit of Justice, 3/3 Crusade)
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby lythac » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:55 pm

One thing that would need to be decided upon when making such a list is whether or not to include AP reduction. Solo our uptime is ~90% and it accounts for a 15-30% melee damage reduction. As EH covers the worst burst that can happen, this happens when the debuff is off which was what started the Vind thread.

Listing both would be an option.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Reejin » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:59 pm

What is the run speed difference between PoJ 1 and 2 and Tuskarr's?
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby lythac » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:04 pm

PoJ R1 8%
PoJ R2 15%
Tusk 8%

Best to take PoJ discussion (if one is wanted) to another thread, one of the talent threads.
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Re: EH List For Current Content

Postby Dravan » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:54 am

I pretty much use a high armour/stam set for all fights in heroic 25 at the moment, generally I change my trinkets and a few other items around on nessasary fights. For example:

Marrogarr: Dual armour trinkets
Lady DW: Dual stamina trinkets, however I tank the ads in P2 which is sick damage. The tanks on Lady DW use a piece of FR gear.
Gunship: 1 armour 1 stam trinket (as if it matters)
Saurfang: Dual armour trinkets
Rotface: Dual stam for kiting, dual armour for tanking boss
Festergut: Dual armour
Putricide: Dual armour
Council: Valnar and Taldram tanks use dual armour, Kelseth uses dual stam
BQ: MT uses armour trinkets, OT uses stam trinkets
Valithria: I heal this normally, but I would imagine 1 armour 1 stam or dual stam are preferable
Sindrigosa: Suprisingly we found max 400 FR (2 or 3 pieces depending on the ones you use and the enchants you have.) Dual stam trinkets but as much armour as possible.
LK: Dual stam (I haven't tried in HC but I imagine this won't change because of the soul reaper.)

So generally in ICC, I would say stacking armour is the way to go. It is fight dependant but then healing is intensive enough on most fights, reducing incoming damage is preferable to soaking it imo.

Only major burst damage I have encountered is on Sind when she parries. Saurfang with full BP or Festergut with 3 stacks are heavy damage, but I wouldn't call it burst as it is predictable damage and you/your healers should be ready for it. As Wrathy said, it tends to be lack of heals due to healers having to deal with other mechanics or raid damage rather than insane unpredictable burst.
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