[Ret-PvE]

Ret, Holy, PVP, etc

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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Boyfriend » Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:49 am

I remember there being a discussion in the ret dps threat about how all possible priority lists are very close together in terms of dps, and which one is the best shifts frequently depending on stats but the effective difference is tiny.

For reference:
With my girlfriends character (2pc T10/2pc T9):
Jud > CS > DS > HoW > Con > Exo: 7801.00 dps
CS > HoW > Jud > Con > DS > Exo: 7787.66 dps
Jud > DS > CS > HoW > Con > Exo: 7779.71 dps (wooo 20 dps worse!)
Exo > Con > DS > HoW > CS > Jud: 7625.10 dps (the worst I could think of right now and it's still only 170 dps behind, that's like 3% and less than RNG factor)

If you want the best rotation for your current gear I'd use rawr to determine which one is best, for me personally there's a limit to how much effort I will spend for a 20 dps increase. (nothing wrong though about optimizing for it, I just want to put ret rotations into perspective, afterall this is the reason why the spec is considered 'faceroll')
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Proudfoot » Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:31 pm

Boyfriend wrote:I remember there being a discussion in the ret dps threat about how all possible priority lists are very close together in terms of dps, and which one is the best shifts frequently depending on stats but the effective difference is tiny.

For reference:
With my girlfriends character (2pc T10/2pc T9):
Jud > CS > DS > HoW > Con > Exo: 7801.00 dps
CS > HoW > Jud > Con > DS > Exo: 7787.66 dps
Jud > DS > CS > HoW > Con > Exo: 7779.71 dps (wooo 20 dps worse!)
Exo > Con > DS > HoW > CS > Jud: 7625.10 dps (the worst I could think of right now and it's still only 170 dps behind, that's like 3% and less than RNG factor)

If you want the best rotation for your current gear I'd use rawr to determine which one is best, for me personally there's a limit to how much effort I will spend for a 20 dps increase. (nothing wrong though about optimizing for it, I just want to put ret rotations into perspective, afterall this is the reason why the spec is considered 'faceroll')


I really wish there were more variation between "good" rets and bad. There just doesn't seem to be the potential in this spec for truely fantastic players to excel. It makes me really sad to see that there's only a ~150 dps difference between a freakin' macroed whatever's on cooldown player and someone who devotes themselves to Ret.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Elsie » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:33 am

guillex wrote:
Baelor wrote:Eh, I operate on my own anecdotal evidence and have stopped paying mind to EJ. Do DS>CS then. Just keep Judgement first and you really can't go wrong.


Fair enough. It was more directed towards Modal, who wanted some sort of proof.

Thanks, forgot I posted in this thread (without backup).

Here's my reasoning, though, which generally coincides with the EJ discussion. Once you have 2pc t10, then you are practically GCD locked. If you can feasibly fill every GCD, you no longer have a FCFS system. you have a 'use whatever does the most damage first' system. In this manner, it's obvious the damage from DS is greater than CS. Also, this generally gives you an extra GCD for DS to 'reset.' e.g. You may do DS>DS or DS>CS>DS. In the reverse, you can only do CS>DS>DS or CS>DS>Cons.

The difference is extremely minimal, at any rate. I will say that prioritizing DS has the opportunity to RNG higher than CS first simply due to the nature of procs and the higher ability to capitalize on it.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby guillex » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:40 am

I've actually had fights where the proc went off 3x in a row. That's always been a pain, as judgement or CS was coming off cooldown as I got the third proc.

For the moment, I'm back to J>CS>DS>HoW>Cons>Exo ... but I'm wondering if I shouldn't be looking at prioritizing HoW a little higher. Like I said, sometimes DS procs 3x in a row, and that means that I'm essentially using 3 abilities over HoW while in execute range.

I don't know how much it affects my dps. I'll have to read through the EJ threads to get a better understanding.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:57 am

guillex wrote:I've actually had fights where the proc went off 3x in a row. That's always been a pain, as judgement or CS was coming off cooldown as I got the third proc.

For the moment, I'm back to J>CS>DS>HoW>Cons>Exo ... but I'm wondering if I shouldn't be looking at prioritizing HoW a little higher. Like I said, sometimes DS procs 3x in a row, and that means that I'm essentially using 3 abilities over HoW while in execute range.

I don't know how much it affects my dps. I'll have to read through the EJ threads to get a better understanding.

I can say DS should definitely hit harder than HoW with 4pc. Probably even without RV ticks. Don't underestimate that seal proc.

The realistic problem with prioritizing HoW is DS does more damage than CS. So if you want to prioritize HoW, but are fairly GCD locked, you'd have to replace CS with HoW and do J>HoW>DS>CS.

In other news I just got my 4pc yesterday (gogo welfare vault pants). I'll see if I can break my record of ~10.5k dps on marrowgar this week.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Kelaan » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:10 am

Do you primarily play ret, Elsie, or have you been able to get enough badges for both tanking and ret gear? (If so ... /jealous. heh. Mine's in the stone age.)
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby guillex » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:41 am

Elsie wrote:
guillex wrote:I've actually had fights where the proc went off 3x in a row. That's always been a pain, as judgement or CS was coming off cooldown as I got the third proc.

For the moment, I'm back to J>CS>DS>HoW>Cons>Exo ... but I'm wondering if I shouldn't be looking at prioritizing HoW a little higher. Like I said, sometimes DS procs 3x in a row, and that means that I'm essentially using 3 abilities over HoW while in execute range.

I don't know how much it affects my dps. I'll have to read through the EJ threads to get a better understanding.

I can say DS should definitely hit harder than HoW with 4pc. Probably even without RV ticks. Don't underestimate that seal proc.

The realistic problem with prioritizing HoW is DS does more damage than CS. So if you want to prioritize HoW, but are fairly GCD locked, you'd have to replace CS with HoW and do J>HoW>DS>CS.

In other news I just got my 4pc yesterday (gogo welfare vault pants). I'll see if I can break my record of ~10.5k dps on marrowgar this week.


Well, I'm not 4pc yet, and I don't think I'll ever get the pants before I get the 95 EoF for the chest ... We'll see...

I'll mess around with my rotation tonight. Also, I got Bryntoll last night, and started wondering about my rep ring... Also because I was reading something in the App thread here about the Agi ring being better for Ret than the Str ring.

That true?
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:37 pm

guillex wrote:I'll mess around with my rotation tonight. Also, I got Bryntoll last night, and started wondering about my rep ring... Also because I was reading something in the App thread here about the Agi ring being better for Ret than the Str ring.

That true?

Yes, Agi ring is better because of our favorable agility-crit ratio. Once the Cataclysm stat changes arrive, however, this may no longer be true.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby guillex » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:56 pm

Baelor wrote:
guillex wrote:I'll mess around with my rotation tonight. Also, I got Bryntoll last night, and started wondering about my rep ring... Also because I was reading something in the App thread here about the Agi ring being better for Ret than the Str ring.

That true?

Yes, Agi ring is better because of our favorable agility-crit ratio. Once the Cataclysm stat changes arrive, however, this may no longer be true.


So it would probably be a decent thing for me to change from the strength to the agi ring. Alright. Thanks for clearing that up!

edit: Errr, for both 10 and 25, I would gather?
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Flex » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:15 pm

Proudfoot wrote:I really wish there were more variation between "good" rets and bad.


A good Ret will Hand of Sacrifice a healer Snobold stunned in fire.*

*as an example
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Baelor » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:04 pm

guillex wrote:
Baelor wrote:
guillex wrote:I'll mess around with my rotation tonight. Also, I got Bryntoll last night, and started wondering about my rep ring... Also because I was reading something in the App thread here about the Agi ring being better for Ret than the Str ring.

That true?

Yes, Agi ring is better because of our favorable agility-crit ratio. Once the Cataclysm stat changes arrive, however, this may no longer be true.


So it would probably be a decent thing for me to change from the strength to the agi ring. Alright. Thanks for clearing that up!

edit: Errr, for both 10 and 25, I would gather?

Bwah?

Just buy the agi ring, Guillex. I don't understand the distinction you're asking about.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Elsie » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:06 pm

Do you primarily play ret, Elsie, or have you been able to get enough badges for both tanking and ret gear? (If so ... /jealous. heh. Mine's in the stone age.)

I primarily do PvP, but I normally pug as ret. My tanking gear is shameful compared to its once bleeding edge shine.
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Re: [Ret-PvE]

Postby Kelaan » Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:57 am

When I looked lower at your pvp advice thread, I guessed that. I'd have saved you a silly question if I'd read that thread before this one. ;)
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