Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:52 pm

Arcand wrote:For being the only class which requires at least 80 levels of prior experience before creating one, you'd think DKs' quality of play would average a bit higher than for other classes, yet it seems to be the opposite. Lots of sloppy players.

But the next one you run with might be great, and you're doing him and yourself a great disservice if you go in assuming he's going to be terrible just because the last three were.

Didn't they change that a while back to only needing a level 55 character on any server to make one? I was under the impression these baddies are just rolling a hunter to 55 then switching to DK for lolheroclass.

Also, you're actually doing yourself a great service by assuming he's terrible. If you're right, then you've been proven right. If you're wrong, then you've been pleasantly surprised.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:59 pm

Arcand wrote:For being the only class which requires at least 80 levels of prior experience before creating one, you'd think DKs' quality of play would average a bit higher than for other classes, yet it seems to be the opposite. Lots of sloppy players.

But the next one you run with might be great, and you're doing him and yourself a great disservice if you go in assuming he's going to be terrible just because the last three were.

I don't think human nature works that way. If I eat Brussels sprouts three times and they taste like ass, I don't expect them to taste awesome the next time.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:09 pm

Arcand wrote:The 2nd-last pull before Ymiron, especially if the patrol adds in.


I would argue this is a horrible place to use it, especially if the pat adds in. Once the army is dead you're left with up to 10 mobs + summoned skeletons scattered around the room that the tank may not have any threat on whatsoever, and no means of building threat because AotD has scattered mobs to hell and gone, and the tank has no rage/mana.

That being said, that's the only interesting pull in the entire place.

I disagree with some of your other uses (Skaldi; useless dps gain, breaks tank's ability to taunt the WW and keep it away from healers/ranged), but with its relatively long CD it's really only going to be up once an instance, unless something goes horribly, terribly wrong.

Also I don't think going to the extreme of saying AotD should never be used is quite right, either, but I don't think you've made a good case FOR its use either. I mean, warriors can taunt all the time and hunters can MD onto the healer. Are these abilities that should be used all the time too?

You have yet to address my contention that AotD is horrible because it actively adversely affects the tank's ability to replenish rage/mana, so when your Army goes away the tank is left with no threat and no ability to generate threat.

Smart tanks will be able to deal with AotD and work around it, and be glad it won't be up again before they can GTFO of the instance. The challenge in an instance is supposed to be the content -- not the other players.

When I was leveling my druid a l80 DK randomed into UK with a bunch of us l75s. He then proceeded to pull every mob in the place, regardless of where the rest of us were, or if the healer had mana, or if we were done with the previous pull. The healer was good enough to keep me alive and I'm good enough to deal with a lot of unexpected shit happening, so we lasted until the CD came up and we kicked him just before the final boss. I should note that in spite of pulling everything he managed to do less overall damage than a paladin specced ret wearing mostly tank greens.

One of the most challenging runs I've ever been in. But was it fun? Not really.

Likewise, tanks generally get irritated by DPS warriors that charge and WW on the pull, regardless of whether the tank has actually started to build threat yet. I view DKs who don't know how to judiciously use AotD the same way: not terribly bright.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Folstar » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:00 am

Koatanga wrote:I don't think human nature works that way. If I eat Brussels sprouts three times and they taste like ass, I don't expect them to taste awesome the next time.


And that sums it up beautifully. You have equated a diverse class played by multitudes of individuals to an assy tasting vegetable you do not like. It seems several people harbor some resentment towards Death Knights in general, and are just using dnd and aotd bashing to justify their asinine stance.

Another delightful metaphor that was used was "keep it in his pants" in regards to not using aotd. Why? Getting it out of the pants and waving it around is fun (don't lie). WoW is a game. Games are supposed to be fun.

If you are in a heroic (low risk, should be fun time) and someone uses aotd and no one dies then who cares?!? Even if someone does die so what?? If your biggest concern is "mah resource pool did not fill as quickly which mildly inconvenienced me- rawr rawr rawr" or "stupid 10 second rez spell ruined my day" then you are taking the GAME too serious or are so far beyond being a jerk you are probably only a few steps from Sainthood coming around the other way.

For Fun---------------
I hate to break it to you, but most of the [pally types] playing that [pally] class flat out suck at it. I am reminded of a [toc] run where the [Pally] had blues and greens, no gems, no enchants, and even +spellpower gear. The raid leader said "It's OK, he lives next door to me". I said "I don't think [icehowl] cares where he lives."

There, my story could be just as true as yours- what does it prove? Have I just created a sound basis for whatever anti-paladin vituperation* my heart desires?

You have yet to address my contention that AotD is horrible because it actively adversely affects the tank's ability to replenish rage/mana, so when your Army goes away the tank is left with no threat and no ability to generate threat.

Situation 1: it is trash and will probably be dead before aotd is down
Situation 2: it is a single target- DP + JoW will keep your mana up long enough for you to have a comfortable tps lead
Situation 3: you are a bear- use enrage
Situation 4: you are a warrior- I know jack about warriors, but I bet there is an answer
Situation 5: you are a dk tank- wait 15 second, now pop your aotd
Counter question: if not being actively attacked by a boss leaves you with "no threat and no ability to generate threat" how do you do Saurfang? Toravan? Gormok? [Other examples]? When it is your time to taunt and subsequently hold aggro do you go write angry posts about how stupid the fight is or do you somehow manage?


For Even more Fun---------------
When I was leveling my [dk] a 80 [paladin] randomed into [OK] with a bunch of us 75s. He then proceeded to pull every mob in the place, regardless of where the rest of us were, or if the healer had mana, or if we were done with the previous pull. The healer was good enough to keep me alive and I'm good enough to [think highly of myself], so we lasted until the CD came up and we kicked him just before the final boss [then laughed about it- haha to his wasted time]. I should note that in spite of pulling everything he managed to do less overall damage than a[nother dk] specced [unholy] wearing mostly tank greens.

Once again, my story could very well be true- what does it prove? That one person who is bad at wow was playing a particular class? Those types of revelations blow my mind. In your version the ret paladin wearing tank greens (at 75 no less) could just as easily be the basis for some pointless hate.
Example: What a stupid idiot know nothing terrible player to dps in tank gear- why are paladins so stupid?
See?


*I already used 'diatribe' twice today so was forced to consult a thesaurus for that one- it is a sickness
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:36 am

DK is the new class for Wrath, so basically everyone gives them a go. There are some that are like the mechanics of it and are good at the class. There are others who are just dabbling at it and suck big time.

I pug randoms a lot, and I see quite a lot of people playing alts and such. By far and away the worst group, as a whole, are death knights. If someone is doing 700dps in the run, it is invariably a DK.

I don't know why I, as a tank, should embrace the idea of someone basically taunting everything off me when half the time the person behind the keyboard has no clue what he's doing.

I signed up as a tank because that's what I want to do. I am not going to be happy about someone who signs up as DPS deciding he will tank instead of me.

I'm really sorry if that eliminates all fun in the game for a DK, but that's just the way I feel.

At some point, it's about my fun, too.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Playdoh » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:04 am

Koatanga wrote:At some point, it's about my fun, too.


Random heroics are about me being done with them in 15 - 20 minutes tops, the shorter the better, because I want the 2 frost emblems to get gear for my fun.

So if AoTD is used smartly and is a dps increase for the DK, go for it. It's been mentioned good uses of AoTD in heroics. Most DK's will not use AoTD at smart places, and I myself have chosen some very stupid places to use it. Live and Learn.

It's not AotD and rather or not it should be used. It's the player using it.

Heroics at my gear level: A tank really is not needed if you have a good healer, and vice versa, a healer is not needed if you have a good tank. Dps is not needed to do the instance, but they are needed to clear the instance within 15 - 20 minutes. So keep the ego's in check get the random heroic done and profit.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Playdoh » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:14 am

Folstar wrote:Counter question: if not being actively attacked by a boss leaves you with "no threat and no ability to generate threat" how do you do Saurfang? Toravan? Gormok? [Other examples]? When it is your time to taunt and subsequently hold aggro do you go write angry posts about how stupid the fight is or do you somehow manage?


All those are 10 man raid or 25 man raids. Different group compositon and different mechanics. Usually 10 man's will have at least 1 replenishment if not more.

AotD is a continuous taunt, and is subject to taunt dr. So if AotD all dies and you do not have secondary threat, the mob could very well be taunt immune, that will not happen with any of those bosses, unless the other tank is just stupid, in which case they would probably be kicked from the group.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Tenaka » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:21 am

Folstar wrote:Turning bosses with breath/front cone attacks into Russian Roulette Machines? That is a huge comedic benefit.


IDD, wierd thing is the time I took on Cyanigosa in a group of all clothies, bubbled mid fight and enjoyed the comedic benefit of watching the clothies torn to pieces, I found myself the only one laughing.

Still, it was for my comedic benefit so all is well huh?
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:18 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Arcand wrote:The 2nd-last pull before Ymiron, especially if the patrol adds in.


I would argue this is a horrible place to use it, especially if the pat adds in. Once the army is dead you're left with up to 10 mobs + summoned skeletons scattered around the room that the tank may not have any threat on whatsoever, and no means of building threat because AotD has scattered mobs to hell and gone, and the tank has no rage/mana.


This makes some sense to me if we're talking about a warrior, and no sense at all to me if we're talking about a bear or paladin. (I don't have an 80 DK tank.) These nightmare scenarios you're describing have never come close to happening to me and I have trouble believing they've happened to you more than once either, not because we're supermen but because it's not as ridiculously unstable as the picture you're painting. If I was making some claim with 'always' or 'never' in it, you could whip out one of these absurd outlier cases and shoot me down with it, but I'm not. When the possibilities you're throwing around have no basis in my experience, all I can do is frown and wonder if I'm on a special low-difficulty server, or if you're getting a tad carried away.

That pull starts out in a compact square where you can consecrate the whole bunch. The patrol is melee guys who will run into the consecration area, so where is "scattered around the room" coming from? The summoned skeletons and the Ymirjar Berserkers are undead so Wrath works. We start with 75+% mana and Divine Plea is available. So where is this "no threat whatsoever, and the tank has no mana" coming from?

The example before this had our hypothetical tank burning through all his mana while Army was up, yet failing to stay ahead of the healer's threat. If things fell apart that bad with any kind of frequency, we'd all be too terrified to leave Stormwind.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Boyfriend » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:33 am

I was always amazed at how quickly AotD could wipe the raid on Anub'arak25 hc.

On our first kill we were scared of our offtanks dying as we stopped dpsing adds (I don't know why honestly we even had 2 offtanks) and the raidleader thought it would be a good idea to call for AotD when the boss was at like 3%.

The following happened within about 3 seconds.

All adds bunch up on a bunch of ghouls.
All ghouls instantly die to 4 0.4 sec attack mobs.
Both offtanks instantly die due to having adds behind them.
3/4th of the raid dies due to being bunched up on 4 0.4 sec attack speed mobs.
Anub'arak dies, with 5 ppl alive (23 or so before this stunt)
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:21 am

Folstar wrote:*I already used 'diatribe' twice today so was forced to consult a thesaurus for that one- it is a sickness


I know I was impressed. Its fairly rare I run across a word where even the connotation is a mystery to me.

As for the argument, I'm going to maintain my previously stated stance. So long as it doesn't get the group killed, I really don't mind someone using AotD while I tank. The only issue I have is it bruising my delicate feelings because, unlike CC or other abilities, it isn't cooperative, its upstaging, and makes my role in the group irrelevant.

Yes, sometimes it can be very bad for the tank to have AotD used, and yes, Warriors in particular are very limited in responses to the situation if a massive pack of mobs doesn't die before AotD finishes.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:24 pm

Boyfriend wrote:The following happened within about 3 seconds.

All adds bunch up on a bunch of ghouls.
All ghouls instantly die to 4 0.4 sec attack mobs.
Both offtanks instantly die due to having adds behind them.
3/4th of the raid dies due to being bunched up on 4 0.4 sec attack speed mobs.
Anub'arak dies, with 5 ppl alive (23 or so before this stunt)


I normally tank adds on this fight, but I've never done it on 25 so maybe I'm missing something. How did this cause the adds to get behind the tanks? Were they running around in the mayhem and losing track of which mobs they had been tanking?
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:33 pm

Hokahey wrote:Yes, sometimes it can be very bad for the tank to have AotD used, and yes, Warriors in particular are very limited in responses to the situation if a massive pack of mobs doesn't die before AotD finishes.


Warriors are the tank I'd consider the most vulnerable to this. I'd think extra hard before hitting Army with a warrior I didn't know.

They do have Commanding Shout, but if they had to use that to get a pull back under control I'd feel like I had screwed up and would be apologizing unreservedly.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Folstar » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:14 pm

GREAT MOMENTS IN ARMY OF THE DEAD:
Yesterday Jaraxxus was the weekly. We decided to go to ToGC because a number of newer recruits had never done it and many of our alts did not have the achievement. During beasts Icehowl enraged very low on health, committed genocide, and jumped to the center- inexplicably myself (DK alt) and a lock were still alive. Vent instantly turned into the loudest most die hard pep squad you can imagine. While the lock dodged the charge I popped AotD because my dps is crap and I know it. About 12 seconds (I know this because RL was practically screaming the count on the stun) later Icehowl was dead and life was good. Without the dps boost of AotD the day would have been lost. Truly a great moment in AotD.

Stuff---

Koatanga wrote: I pug randoms a lot, and I see quite a lot of people playing alts and such. By far and away the worst group, as a whole, are death knights. If someone is doing 700dps in the run, it is invariably a DK.


Yesterday three or my guildies and I did a random. The 5th member was a ret paladin doing ~600dps. I would have preferred the DK doing, invariably, 700 dps. True Story.

Koatanga wrote:I signed up as a tank because that's what I want to do. I am not going to be happy about someone who signs up as DPS deciding he will tank instead of me.


Again, I just want to apologize to healers everywhere for using JoL, SSing myself, sometimes using SoL, and everything else that is me deciding I will heal instead of you- I did not realize I was ruining your game experience.

Playdoh wrote: All those are 10 man raid or 25 man raids. Different group compositon and different mechanics. Usually 10 man's will have at least 1 replenishment if not more.


Replenishment helps warriors, bears, and dks how? In the time between taunts replenishment is giving you <10% of your mana as a paladin, that is game changing how?

Tenaka wrote: IDD, wierd thing is the time I took on Cyanigosa in a group of all clothies, bubbled mid fight and enjoyed the comedic benefit of watching the clothies torn to pieces, I found myself the only one laughing.


[I sliced this part out. Statements of the form "If (you think x) then (scorn and condemnation)" can get out of hand too easily. -Arcand]
^Revised version: There is a world of difference between bubble hearth and AotD, even AotD used improperly.

Hokahey wrote:Yes, sometimes it can be very bad for the tank to have AotD used, and yes, Warriors in particular are very limited in responses to the situation if a massive pack of mobs doesn't die before AotD finishes.


That is the fairest and most accurate critic of AotD I have seen in this thread.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Hokahey » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:34 pm

Arcand wrote:
Hokahey wrote:Yes, sometimes it can be very bad for the tank to have AotD used, and yes, Warriors in particular are very limited in responses to the situation if a massive pack of mobs doesn't die before AotD finishes.


Warriors are the tank I'd consider the most vulnerable to this. I'd think extra hard before hitting Army with a warrior I didn't know.

They do have Commanding Shout, but if they had to use that to get a pull back under control I'd feel like I had screwed up and would be apologizing unreservedly.


I think you mean Challenging Shout, but even that is only a "fixate", not a taunt, so after it wears off, the mobs will return to their normal aggro tables. Theoretically, if things are off cooldown, the Warrior is of relative gear parity with the DPS, and isn't too far behind on threat before using it, or there aren't too many mobs involved, or they aren't too spread out, getting them back in hand is fairly easy.

It'd be a lot to ask of the player if the stars aren't aligned right, and if it becomes a wipe as a result, said tank is often the 1 who is labeled a "bad tank" as a result, in my experience.

Which is the crux of the issue, I think. I know personally, while I assume that I will almost never encounter the same players more than once in LFD, their perception of my performance *does* matter to me. I know that, to a degree, some people will have a poor view of me no matter how fantastic my performance was, but I don't focus on that. I want most people to say, "that guy was a fantastic/good/decent tank, I'm glad we had him" after we part ways. It bothers me when a run feels "chaotic", as a matter of personal pride, since I view part of my role while tanking as giving structure to the instance and pulls, allowing the rest of the group to do their roles with as little interference as possible.

AotD makes a pull feel chaotic, to me, and therefore I have a kneejerk hatred of it, but I've learned in time to let go of it in most scenarios, and the truth is it is a *very* powerful cooldown, just tremendously irritating when used stupidly/thoughtlessly.
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