Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:22 pm

Another way to look at this issue is making the pull.

Tanks traditionally make the pull, but they are by no means the only class capable of pulling. That is just like how tanks usually tank, but DKs can also effectively tank using AotD.

How long would it take you as a tank to become annoyed with a DPS who pulls the groups before you do?

The groups still get pulled, and all you have to do is taunt to get the aggro, so where's the harm? What does it matter that someone else pulls instead of the tank? It's just an ego thing, right?

Yet I think by the third pull we'd all be letting him tank what he pulls, or telling the healer to stop healing him.

If DKs want to perform the tank role via AotD, they can sign up as tank. They can tank in any tree. Given the number of them that have rolled need (while in the group as DPS) on tanking items I wanted, there must be a ton of them with tanking gear. All they have to do is click "tank" and they can use AotD as much as they want.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:40 pm

Koatanga wrote:Another way to look at this issue is making the pull.

Tanks traditionally make the pull, but they are by no means the only class capable of pulling. That is just like how tanks usually tank, but DKs can also effectively tank using AotD.

How long would it take you as a tank to become annoyed with a DPS who pulls the groups before you do?

The groups still get pulled, and all you have to do is taunt to get the aggro, so where's the harm? What does it matter that someone else pulls instead of the tank? It's just an ego thing, right?


Most DPS who do this wouldn't mark the kill target, would take damage executing the pull which the healer would have to deal with, would fail to disable/LOS casters in the group and would generate significant threat on the targets, requiring me to use cooldowns to keep them from getting their asses kicked.

None of those things need happen if a DK hits Army at a well-chosen moment in a well-chosen fight, so I'm not sure this is a good analogy.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:47 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Arcand wrote:If you really mean what you said, I have to assume that if a caster was standing back spamming shadow bolts at you and I Polymorphed/Blinded/Hexed him, you'd be annoyed because I just broke your aggro.

If that assumption is false, can you explain why not?


Targeted CC is helpful. Random aoe taunting is not.


How is it not-helpful for the bad guys to take a bunch of damage and for the damage on the tank to be hugely reduced?
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:58 pm

Arcand wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:
Arcand wrote:If you really mean what you said, I have to assume that if a caster was standing back spamming shadow bolts at you and I Polymorphed/Blinded/Hexed him, you'd be annoyed because I just broke your aggro.

If that assumption is false, can you explain why not?


Targeted CC is helpful. Random aoe taunting is not.


How is it not-helpful for the bad guys to take a bunch of damage and for the damage on the tank to be hugely reduced?

It'd be like suddenly replacing a high school basketball team's best player with Shaq. Sure, the other team is going to get it's ass kicked, but suddenly that player isn't having any fun.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:34 pm

Arcand wrote:How is it not-helpful for the bad guys to take a bunch of damage and for the damage on the tank to be hugely reduced?

Oh please - there isn't a boss in a heroic that threatens my life with even partially-capable DPS. I can solo many heroic bosses.

You may think it's some favour to take that "bunch" of damage the tank would otherwise be subject to, but it's like your massive DPS increase in that 30-second boss fight: Completely irrelevant. The boss dies easily whether you pop army or not. It has no impact on the outcome of the fight. It's nothing but stat-padding to impress off-server people you'll probably never see again.

We've talked about the ego of the tank who needs to control everything about the fight, so let's talk about the ego of the DK who thinks his recount number is more important than not ruining the tank's fun.

Or is that not to be considered? Is the tank perhaps some servant who isn't supposed to have any fun - he's just there so the DPS can maximise their enjoyment?

Is there any wonder queues are log for DPS and instant for tanks?
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:52 pm

Arcand wrote:How is it not-helpful for the bad guys to take a bunch of damage and for the damage on the tank to be hugely reduced?


Because the instance is more than the period of time your army is out.

The healer isn't healing your AotD. Ghouls die. Mobs proceed to eat healer, because tank hasn't been able to build threat because they are mana or rage starved because rage and mana replenishment mechanics are predicated on the tank getting hit. Group wipes.

If this happens even once, it wastes more time than it would save in more than a dozen runs.

Cost/benefit analysis: nil.

Of course, this is predicated on the DK popping army brainlessly, and army behaving brainlessly (which it does).

I don't argue that AotD is useless. I just question DKs who think having their little friends out adds anything useful to a heroic run.

I should note that I have had AotD wipe me exactly one time in HoL on Loken, when the army dragged Loken all over the room and pulled a skipped pat, which knocked the healer back, aggroing the two additional static mobs in the back of the room. Five minutes to run back on what was (up to that point) a 9 minute run.

Pretty much retarded.

Edit: they really should have threat generated by the army transfer to the DK. This might teach some of them discretion.
Last edited by fuzzygeek on Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:57 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Arcand wrote:How is it not-helpful for the bad guys to take a bunch of damage and for the damage on the tank to be hugely reduced?

Oh please - there isn't a boss in a heroic that threatens my life with even partially-capable DPS. I can solo many heroic bosses.


I assumed as much. Similarly, many DPS warriors could easily soak the damage resulting from pulling a couple mobs off you, generating extra rage in the process and producing more damage and fun for them for negligible impact on the healer.

You may think it's some favour to take that "bunch" of damage the tank would otherwise be subject to, but it's like your massive DPS increase in that 30-second boss fight: Completely irrelevant. The boss dies easily whether you pop army or not. It has no impact on the outcome of the fight. It's nothing but stat-padding to impress off-server people you'll probably never see again.


Should we have stuck with our Tempered Saronite armor, then? We cleared heroics fine with that. Or could it be that people have fun by pushing their already-excellent performance to even greater heights? And could it be that that's not such a bad thing?

Or is that not to be considered? Is the tank perhaps some servant who isn't supposed to have any fun - he's just there so the DPS can maximise their enjoyment?


I think you're getting hyperbolic. Is Army, which the DK will probably manage to cast once in an entire run (we've been talking mostly about heroics, I think), a critical determinant which will utterly destroy your fun if it happens? We're talking about 40 seconds, of which around half is often wasted because the bad guys hit the floor so fast.

Is the tank such a delicate flower that he should take his ball and go home if the other players have a 'woo hoo' moment that makes him briefly less relevant? That's like a wide receiver getting pissed because coach calls a couple running plays per quarter.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:00 pm

Arcand wrote:Is the tank such a delicate flower that he should take his ball and go home if the other players have a 'woo hoo' moment that makes him briefly less relevant?

YES!
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:03 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Arcand wrote:How is it not-helpful for the bad guys to take a bunch of damage and for the damage on the tank to be hugely reduced?


Because the instance is more than the period of time your army is out.

The healer isn't healing your AotD. Ghouls die. Mobs proceed to eat healer, because tank hasn't been able to build threat because they are mana or rage starved because rage and mana replenishment mechanics are predicated on the tank getting hit. Group wipes.


Yes, we've had a list of "times when Army is a terrible idea" in the thread since page one. Your scenario where everything goes wrong at once is an excellent example. :)

I've never said they should hit Army whenever the whim strikes. I'm saying "Never AOTD because it makes me MAAAAADDDD" is an unreasonable position.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:11 pm

Arcand wrote:I've never said they should hit Army whenever the whim strikes. I'm saying "Never AOTD because it makes me MAAAAADDDD" is an unreasonable position.


Oh, I agree with you. Judicious use of AotD -- or any other ability -- that helps the group is ... er ... helpful. The problem is, AotD is not a targeted effect and I don't see how it will be useful in a manner that overrides its downside.

Off the top of my head, I can think of only four places in all the heroic instances:

1. ToC, Black Knight phase 2.
2. HoL, pulling the entire hall of statues after Volkhan.
3. OK, insanity.
4. THARON'JA IS ETERNAL.

Other than that, I see no benefit to using AotD in a heroic.

Also, the more I think about having ghoul threat transfer to the DK, the more I like it. Tanking DKs will find it more useful, and DPS DKs will have to be smart when they use it. Right now there is no opportunity cost or direct risk to the DK popping AotD.

But then, I personally think every CD should have an associated cost.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Folstar » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:56 pm

Grehn wrote:"It'd be like suddenly replacing a high school basketball team's best player with Shaq. Sure, the other team is going to get it's ass kicked, but suddenly that player isn't having any fun."

I think it would be awesome fun (5 grades of fun above not having any fun) to watch Shaq play on my high school basketball team- granted that would require a time machine, but awesome fun none the less.

Arcand wrote:"Is the tank such a delicate flower that he should take his ball and go home if the other players have a 'woo hoo' moment that makes him briefly less relevant? That's like a wide receiver getting pissed because coach calls a couple running plays per quarter."

Think of how unsympathetic we tankadins are to healers too! I'll run entire heroics with the healer just casting renew occasionally- think of how pissed they must be!

fuzzygeek wrote:"Other than that, I see no benefit to using AotD in a heroic."

Turning bosses with breath/front cone attacks into Russian Roulette Machines? That is a huge comedic benefit.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:45 pm

Arcand wrote:Is Army, which the DK will probably manage to cast once in an entire run (we've been talking mostly about heroics, I think), a critical determinant which will utterly destroy your fun if it happens? We're talking about 40 seconds, of which around half is often wasted because the bad guys hit the floor so fast.

Is the peer-approval and awe gained in those less-than-40-seconds a critical determinant which will utterly destroy the DK's fun if he has to keep it in his pants?

Why is it that someone in a DPS role who wants to deliberately pull aggro somehow makes me a prima donna if I find it annoying? Back when hunters left growl on, it was universally considered bad form. Does being a hero class make it OK?

I hate to break it to you, but most of the "heroes" playing that hero class flat out suck at it. I am reminded of a VoA run where the DK had blues and greens, no gems, no enchants, and even +spellpower gear. The raid leader said "It's OK, he lives next door to me". I said "I don't think Toravon cares where he lives."

If I have the choice between doing a run where I am never annoyed, and doing a run with a hunter who leaves growl on, a ret pally who uses HoR for extra damage, a warrior who taunts off me for extra rage, or anyone else who deliberately takes aggro off me without so much as a by-your-leave, guess what I would pick?

Lack of annoyance ftw.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:20 pm

Folstar wrote:Turning bosses with breath/front cone attacks into Russian Roulette Machines? That is a huge comedic benefit.


Ugh. That's one time when I hate seeing the ghouls, and in Violet Hold and Nexus it seems to be when the DK thinks "wups, last chance to hit Army"...yes, the damage is feeble, but I'm enough of an optimization geek that I don't like seeing those breaths spooging all over the place.

Off the top of my head, I can think of only four places in all the heroic instances:

1. ToC, Black Knight phase 2.
2. HoL, pulling the entire hall of statues after Volkhan.
3. OK, insanity.
4. THARON'JA IS ETERNAL.

Other than that, I see no benefit to using AotD in a heroic.


I agree with yours, and here are more times when I'd be fine with seeing Army:

The 2nd-last pull before Ymiron, especially if the patrol adds in.
Skadi the Ruthless: They'll get torn up by whirlwinds, then again they eat poisoned spears. Not too bad.
King Ymiron: Some uptime lost to stuns, but eh, why not.

The protect-Brann event in Halls of Stone.
Mini-Gruul in Halls of Stone, if pets don't Shatter. (I'm pretty sure they don't. If I were the DK, I'd confirm before doing it.)
Sjonnir the Ironshaper, though they'd probably get chewed by his lightning ring.

Miss Foursome-Waiting-to-Happen in Nexus, ideally on the split.
The giant guy in Nexus.
Virtually any trash pull in Nexus, especially if it kills Stewards a little faster. (But you'd have to drop it carefully - add-ins.)

Guardian-summoner guy in Old Kingdom, whether or not their taunts work on the invulnerable bugs.

The first guy in Azjol-Nerub.
Anub'arak and the add waves in Azjol-Nerub.

The two Vrykul guys in Utgarde Keep.

...I'm losing interest in making the list, but anyway - there are a lot of fights where if I saw Army go off and I had enough threat built up that the survivors would snap back onto me after the ghouls go away, I'd think eh, sure.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:24 pm

I'm not a huge fan of unsolicited Army'ing, just as I'm not a fan of unsolicited Earth Elemental'ing. If some DK just goes "LOLIMMAARMYNAOK" and spawns a bunch of annoying ghouls for no reason, he's going to get smacked. If there's a real and tangible benefit to it, then someone will call for it to be used.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:39 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Arcand wrote:Is Army, which the DK will probably manage to cast once in an entire run (we've been talking mostly about heroics, I think), a critical determinant which will utterly destroy your fun if it happens? We're talking about 40 seconds, of which around half is often wasted because the bad guys hit the floor so fast.

Is the peer-approval and awe gained in those less-than-40-seconds a critical determinant which will utterly destroy the DK's fun if he has to keep it in his pants?


No. But I'd say the onus is on the tank to make the case that this ability which the game designers intended for DKs to use, should not be used.

Why is it that someone in a DPS role who wants to deliberately pull aggro somehow makes me a prima donna if I find it annoying? Back when hunters left growl on, it was universally considered bad form. Does being a hero class make it OK?


We talked about this on page two, and in my mind it has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'hero class' status. Leaving Growl on increases the damage the healer has to worry about, and actually decreases the pet's damage due to wasted focus. Army decreases the damage the healer has to worry about and increases the pet damage being done. (I'm assuming the healer will make no effort to heal Army ghouls but will top off permanent pets, which is what I usually see happening and is what I do myself.)

I hate to break it to you, but most of the "heroes" playing that hero class flat out suck at it. I am reminded of a VoA run where the DK had blues and greens, no gems, no enchants, and even +spellpower gear. The raid leader said "It's OK, he lives next door to me". I said "I don't think Toravon cares where he lives."


For being the only class which requires at least 80 levels of prior experience before creating one, you'd think DKs' quality of play would average a bit higher than for other classes, yet it seems to be the opposite. Lots of sloppy players.

But the next one you run with might be great, and you're doing him and yourself a great disservice if you go in assuming he's going to be terrible just because the last three were.
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