Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Wrathy » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:06 pm

While I agree with Arcand that as a blanket statement he is correct in his assessments. However, I personally hate army as well, but only when it is used with concern to raid mechanics. Armying on P1 of Arathas, or Armying on Anub'arak at any time but sub 5% is very frustrating to a tank whos only job is to maintain control on said adds. Our guild is very picky about army and we have set times when it is allowed to be used, as it usually does not provide enough dps benefit to outweigh the consequences of taunt bouncing adds which have the ability to one shot clotthies.

Most of this is situational, and for the most part, i have no issue with dk's and the use of their abilities, there are some situations where it is not prudent.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Meloree » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:12 pm

Folstar wrote:DKs & Army- they should be using it all the time. As buttons go AoTD is just about the most powerful one anyone can push in WoW- why wouldn't you want DKs using it??? A well timed Army can save the day (ex- oh crap the other tank just died on Precious and I still have a stack we're doomed, DOOO... oh wait the dk popped army, hooray) and is fun to watch. Honestly I'm getting so jealous thinking about it that in Cataclysm Paladins need an 'Army of Angels' ability or we should strike.


Army is banned in Edge unless explicit permission is given.. The DKs proved incapable of being trusted to their own devices.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:21 pm

Meloree wrote:Army is banned in Edge unless explicit permission is given.. The DKs proved incapable of being trusted to their own devices.


The image of a bunch of dark champions, the spikes on their black armor encrusted with frozen blood, their runeblades suffused with shadow magic and laden with death, being scolded by a raid leader and told that they've lost their summon-legions-of-the-restless-dead privileges, is funny to me.

Entirely credible, though. :)
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby amh » Mon Mar 08, 2010 3:30 pm

Slight lol: AotD taunts Precious. No idea about Stinky.

Edit: Arr, I see Folstar mentioned it.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby phaqueue » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:43 am

To answer the question posed earlier about taunting as a ret pally to increase damage... that depends on the situation sir...

In heroics... I gladly do it - I can take a hit or 2 (or more) from a heroic mob, and if the tank does not take it back - I have bubble...

In raids, not so much

As far as Death and Decay, if there are more than 4 mobs, DnD is getting dropped as part of my rotation... if I die from it (only really happens in ICC anymore) than so be it... but usually I can rely on my gear and abilities to keep me alive long enough for the tank to get aggro...

For AotD - it's a big enough damage increase for me to stop my rotation to cast it (at least according to the unholy thread on EJ) then it's big enough for me to use... I don't use it on fights where it will wipe the group (or time it right if I do - Deathbringer Saurfang comes to mind here) But if not, it will be popped. In heroics... I pop it every time I can - if you don't like it - I'll gladly tank that boss... in my DPS gear... and DPS spec... with bone shield on - like I've done plenty of times before...
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby greatcow95 » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:18 am

phaqueue wrote:For AotD - it's a big enough damage increase for me to stop my rotation to cast it (at least according to the unholy thread on EJ) then it's big enough for me to use... I don't use it on fights where it will wipe the group (or time it right if I do - Deathbringer Saurfang comes to mind here) But if not, it will be popped. In heroics... I pop it every time I can - if you don't like it - I'll gladly tank that boss... in my DPS gear... and DPS spec... with bone shield on - like I've done plenty of times before...


At which point, I DI the healer...
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:48 am

phaqueue wrote:For AotD - it's a big enough damage increase for me to stop my rotation to cast it (at least according to the unholy thread on EJ) then it's big enough for me to use... I don't use it on fights where it will wipe the group (or time it right if I do - Deathbringer Saurfang comes to mind here) But if not, it will be popped. In heroics... I pop it every time I can - if you don't like it - I'll gladly tank that boss... in my DPS gear... and DPS spec... with bone shield on - like I've done plenty of times before...


If you want to tank, queue as a tank. Given that core tank mechanics (rage, mana replenishment) are predicated on them being hit, pulling shit off them for the sake of your pretty DPS numbers is making his job unnecessarily difficult. I care less about this when on my DK, but on my paladin warrior and bear, it's supremely irritating.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:57 pm

Arcand wrote:Can you explain what harm Army is doing, aside from ruffling your feathers?

Isn't that enough? What right do DPS DKs have to annoy me when I am supposed to be making the run smooth and uneventful (read: not annoying) for the rest of the group?

I've used it to one-shot severely injured bad guys that were out of my reach, so yes. Would you have considered that a bad move?

If you kill it, no. If I have to waste a taunt on you, then yes.

The lack of nuance or qualification in this statement makes me not like it. Seems dogmatic. Doesn't it depend on the damage output? "The tank must hold all aggro always" is false, impractical and unnecessarily rigid.

Holding aggro is the role that I chose when I ticked "tank". Where it is possible to hold aggro, my job as a tank is to hold that aggro.

If in the course of an heroic instance it comes down to a wipe-or-live situation where using AotD would prevent the group from wiping, then go ahead and use it. Has that ever happened ? Does it happen every time you pop AotD to pull aggro off the tank? Or is it just stat-padding?

If you are just using it to increase your DPS in a freaking heroic, you are annoying the one person who ended the 20-minute wait you had to get the random heroic in the first place. Can you explain how that is a good thing?

Even if AotD increased your output by 1000 DPS, it's a 30-second boss fight at most. Why would anyone want to dissuade tanks and potentially increase queue times to do a measly 30k extra damage in an irrelevant heroic? Just to boost your numbers to impress 4 other people from different servers?

If you risk annoying the tank for an irrelevant DPS boost, how is that a good thing?
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Aedh » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:11 am

Folstar wrote:Paladins need an 'Army of Angels' ability or we should strike.


WANTS



DnD is fine, so long as it gets dropped after cons, and even if it isn't, meh, taunt, HotR will bring the mobs back. I stopped trying to get DKs killed once I found out that they won't die in heroics.

AotD.....OMFG. I used to hate it. Now I just chuckle to myself when the DK uses it before a boss with frontal cleaves, breath weapon or any other directional AoE.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arnock » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:38 am

In most raids, army isn't all that bad of a thing to pop, seeing as they dont taunt bosses, but in 5 mans, especially on fights with cleaves or aoes, it pisses me off.


I already run with several pieces of dps and healing gear to keep from getting mana starved in 5 mans, and preventing me from tanking that mob for about the entire fight doesn't help make the situation any better.



I generally dont run into issues with DnD, in 5 mans, trash generally dies before a full length of consecration runs through, and the mobs hit like wet noodles, so if the DK pulls aggro, I'll let him tank for the remainder of the pull.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Folstar » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:19 am

Arnock wrote:In most raids, army isn't all that bad of a thing to pop, seeing as they dont taunt bosses, but in 5 mans, especially on fights with cleaves or aoes, it pisses me off.


When DK tanking turning bosses like Cyanigosa into a Russian Roulette Nightmare is one of the few joys left in the soul crushing drudgery of running dailies.

[quote=]
I generally dont run into issues with DnD, in 5 mans, trash generally dies before a full length of consecration runs through, and the mobs hit like wet noodles, so if the DK pulls aggro, I'll let him tank for the remainder of the pull.[/quote]

^yes, and in raids tanks are usually putting forth effort so aggro loss does not happen much (unless all the single target dps chose a different target and forget the location of their tab key- which happens more often then I care to remember)
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:27 am

Koatanga wrote:
Arcand wrote:Can you explain what harm Army is doing, aside from ruffling your feathers?

Isn't that enough? What right do DPS DKs have to annoy me when I am supposed to be making the run smooth and uneventful (read: not annoying) for the rest of the group?


Their job is to kill the bad guys as quickly as practical because that minimizes stress on the healer. If you get annoyed at things when you can't demonstrate that they're harming the group and they're definitely harming the bad guys, that may not be the DKs' problem. Just because we who like to tank happen to be in great demand right now doesn't mean we should act like a bunch of Vanilla warriors/arrogant divas.

The lack of nuance or qualification in this statement makes me not like it. Seems dogmatic. Doesn't it depend on the damage output? "The tank must hold all aggro always" is false, impractical and unnecessarily rigid.

Holding aggro is the role that I chose when I ticked "tank". Where it is possible to hold aggro, my job as a tank is to hold that aggro.


Why not "Where it is possible to prevent damage to the other members of the group, my job as a tank is to prevent that damage"? If you really mean what you said, I have to assume that if a caster was standing back spamming shadow bolts at you and I Polymorphed/Blinded/Hexed him, you'd be annoyed because I just broke your aggro.

If that assumption is false, can you explain why not?
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby fuzzygeek » Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:18 am

Arcand wrote:If you really mean what you said, I have to assume that if a caster was standing back spamming shadow bolts at you and I Polymorphed/Blinded/Hexed him, you'd be annoyed because I just broke your aggro.

If that assumption is false, can you explain why not?


Targeted CC is helpful. Random aoe taunting is not.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Hokahey » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:11 am

fuzzygeek wrote:
Arcand wrote:If you really mean what you said, I have to assume that if a caster was standing back spamming shadow bolts at you and I Polymorphed/Blinded/Hexed him, you'd be annoyed because I just broke your aggro.

If that assumption is false, can you explain why not?


Targeted CC is helpful. Random aoe taunting is not.


Actually, I'll go a little beyond that. Targetted CC is cooperative teamwork. Random AoE taunting is upstaging, and makes the tank irrelevant. Mind you, in any scenario where I'm not too worried about the boss/mobs facing, it really doesn't bother me, and in some cases it makes the fight somewhat easier, overall.

Still it hurts my delicate feelings when I realize I've become a spectator for the duration of a fight. :wink:
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Koatanga » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:10 pm

Arcand wrote:
Why not "Where it is possible to prevent damage to the other members of the group, my job as a tank is to prevent that damage"? If you really mean what you said, I have to assume that if a caster was standing back spamming shadow bolts at you and I Polymorphed/Blinded/Hexed him, you'd be annoyed because I just broke your aggro.

If that assumption is false, can you explain why not?


If a caster was standing back casting shadowbolts and could be CCd by polymorph or blind, then I am doing no damage to it (would instantly break poly or blind) and therefore it will probably be attracted to healing aggro.

Since I am not generally a bad tank, I would not arrange the pull such that there was a caster left free to rape my healer.

So on that basis your assumption is false.
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