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Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Cocolicious » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:47 pm

Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

What's the word on this on how it will effect gearing in ICC? I know it'll buff stam items but will it be enough to be more EH than armor items?
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:07 am

I don't really see a reason to change gearing because of the buff. I am still going to favor armor items for fights like marrowgar/saurfang/queen and sometimes on festergut as well. However, I haven't seen the other fights so I cannot comment on those.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Halnoth » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:23 am

To be completely honest for paladins it really doesn't matter. More sta=more AD. I am not changing my gearing practices b/c of this buff if anything this buff plays to our strength.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby sangre » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:04 am

Right now it's nothing to write home about, but as it scales up to a 30% buff it will become more appealing. I'm not sure that there are many pieces where the stamina gain +30% is better than the armor on the next best piece.

Just hold onto everything you get. That's always the best strategy.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Loras » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:03 am

Anyone else having issues with dpsers scaling better with the buff and causing some minor threat problems? I am not sure that it's a general problem or just the Wednesday lag made it that bad, but I was getting overaggroed on Rotface by several dpsers (boomkin, shadowpriest, dps warrior). The casters stay in melee range so they overaggro at 110% instead of 130%, and our warrior is just a beast, but I had threat issues even after using Bloodvenom Blade + the ret libram + a hit ring + 2xT10 for more threat. I am afraid that it might be not a lag issue, though, or at least the dpsers would've lagged too, since it was client-based lag. I don't have a parse, but I the only thing I cared before the first 5-stack ooze explosion was my rotation, just in case, and I can guarantee it was perfectly executed, with AW at the start, and still people were catching up. Not sure what to do :( Will try to test in a lag-free environment, but it's disturbing.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby hoho » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:06 am

Yes, dps scales better with it. Reason is all the skills that have base threat * modifier. Only the modifier part increases while base threat remains the same. For dps their entire output and threat scales linearly with it.


It's actually kind of funny to see my priest right after tanks (or non-FD'd hunters) when I have 30+8% threat reduction. OP VE healing ftw :P
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Gavinas » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:17 am

hoho wrote:Yes, dps scales better with it. Reason is all the skills that have base threat * modifier. Only the modifier part increases while base threat remains the same. For dps their entire output and threat scales linearly with it.


It's actually kind of funny to see my priest right after tanks (or non-FD'd hunters) when I have 30+8% threat reduction. OP VE healing ftw :P


I could be wrong but I didn't think any of our abilities still had a bonus threat component beyond the damage they do, i.e they're all threat=modifier*damage, not modifier*damage+bonus threat in which case our threat should scale the same as a dps player's damage with the buff.

edit: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php? ... din+threat seems to confirm that I was remembering correctly, at least assuming that you aren't doing a lot of buffing people during combat.

edit2: It's possible that some dps classes gain an additional benefit from the buff double dipping on certain abilities. For example an unholy dk's scourge strike shadow portion is based off the physical damage portion so if the buff is first applied to the physical portion and then again to the shadow portion based off the already increased physical portion it would do 1.1025x damage instead of 1.05x. I know this is the case for scourge strike with the twin valks buff, I'm not sure how the zone wide buff is coded though. Could also apply to things like marks hunters piercing shots or a mage's ignite. I'm not sure about any other classes abilities that could have a similar effect.
Last edited by Gavinas on Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Chicken » Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:55 am

Always been the case as far as I'm aware that all our abilities scale perfectly well with damage. The abilities that did have a threat modifier on them were all multipliers, not static additions so even those were always improved by damage buffs. That is of course ignoring various unusual sources of threat like blessings, seal recasts, etc.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby hoho » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:00 am

Didn't our shieldslam have some basic +threat built in or was it just the SBV it had added?
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby kysu » Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:01 pm

Loras wrote:Anyone else having issues with dpsers scaling better with the buff and causing some minor threat problems? I am not sure that it's a general problem or just the Wednesday lag made it that bad, but I was getting overaggroed on Rotface by several dpsers (boomkin, shadowpriest, dps warrior). The casters stay in melee range so they overaggro at 110% instead of 130%, and our warrior is just a beast, but I had threat issues even after using Bloodvenom Blade + the ret libram + a hit ring + 2xT10 for more threat. I am afraid that it might be not a lag issue, though, or at least the dpsers would've lagged too, since it was client-based lag. I don't have a parse, but I the only thing I cared before the first 5-stack ooze explosion was my rotation, just in case, and I can guarantee it was perfectly executed, with AW at the start, and still people were catching up. Not sure what to do :( Will try to test in a lag-free environment, but it's disturbing.


I didnt really notice any threat issues, I did notice my Hotr would hit for just shy of 9k. So Im assuming the buff is working fine.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/0437kxpq ... details/5/

There is a parse of people being bad with the buff.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Awyndel » Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:02 pm

Well with the armor inflation from bonus gear, the magic damage in spikes, the healing done during spike deaths being low, and the frequency or withered down scenario's being low, armor wasn't doing very good in the first place. In all reality all that means is we take stamina trinkets ofc, we take armor anywhere else coz its practically free.

But tbh I don't think this will change the numbers too much, because our armor will also count toward that 30% extra health gained. I am not sure if it could tip the relationship so much in favour of health to make us take the 277 stamina ring over the 245 armor ring, or to take 277 stamina plate over 264 armor plate. Well maybe for the ring then, it does have nice str/def.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby jathitimus » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:30 am

The more health you have the more valuable armor is against physical damage.
The more armor you have the more valuable health is against physical damage.
^- is from an EH perspective.


But in the end nothing will change becuase we are already getting all of the bonus armor we can get. Its not like we have a choice to gem for armor or gem for stamina. The only thing I see changing is a buff to using agility/stam gems in red sockets, and using the armor enchant on cloak.


EDIT:
I dont think threat should really be an issue on rotface or festergut, buff or no buff. On rotface dps have time off target to go drop off slimes and on festergut you get a damage boost that should put out insane numbers for yourself.

That comes from my 10 man perspective, I suppose on 25man dps has less time off target becuase they get slimed less often?
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby culhag » Fri Mar 05, 2010 9:39 am

hoho wrote:Didn't our shieldslam have some basic +threat built in or was it just the SBV it had added?

It had some +threat.... during the WotLK beta.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Kihra » Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:45 pm

Awyndel wrote:Well with the armor inflation from bonus gear, the magic damage in spikes, the healing done during spike deaths being low, and the frequency or withered down scenario's being low, armor wasn't doing very good in the first place. In all reality all that means is we take stamina trinkets ofc, we take armor anywhere else coz its practically free.

But tbh I don't think this will change the numbers too much, because our armor will also count toward that 30% extra health gained. I am not sure if it could tip the relationship so much in favour of health to make us take the 277 stamina ring over the 245 armor ring, or to take 277 stamina plate over 264 armor plate. Well maybe for the ring then, it does have nice str/def.


I could be wrong (and I'm sure someone will correct me if I am), but I don't believe the buff changes the relationship between armor and stamina at all. Whatever your armor <-> stamina equivalence was without the buff, it's exactly the same with the buff applied.

Starting with Theck's equation for how much armor = 1 stamina.

Code: Select all
dA = 12.1264*(K+A)/H


Another way to express that equation is to let f = 12.1264 and realize that H = f*S, where S is your raw stamina without the multipliers from kings or talents.

Code: Select all
dA = f*(K+A)/(f*S)
dA = (K+A)/S


Any multipliers to health (like the ICC buff) can just be thought of as changing the value of f. But as you can see, f has already dropped out of the equation, and so any changes to its value have no effect on the relationship between armor and stamina.
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Re: Strength of Wrynn/Hellscream's Warsong

Postby Awyndel » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:10 pm

dA = f*(K+A)/H
f = 12.1264

I think the buff will multiply the value of H by 1.05, or does it also multiple f by 1.05? Coz then it would do nothing.

So basicly you're saying anything that effects f also effects H, and vice versa, therefor we should be taking f out of the formula.

What about base health?

Except when we are talking about extra healing received during spike damage while not being fully topped off ofc, this would affect H, but NOT f.

And to put this in perspective, ofc we have to diminish the outcome for the % of magic damage present in the killing spike.
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