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Speccing

Postby Blondebunny » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:28 pm

I just had a heated discussion with another paladin about his spec concerning threat and his talent choices. First, I'll link his armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-tale ... gn=Eidolon

Here is my armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... londebunny

Now, allow me to tell you some of the disputes he had that he argued with me about.
1: Divinity - He has 5/5 in divinity and I know that there are 3 "floater" points you will have with protection, but he has divine sac, yet he still puts 5 points in divinity.
Is there any use for this?

2: His threat - He argues that he does 11.5k tps consistently without tricks or MD, and will do about 14k tps with TotT and MD. If you look at his spec, he does not have crusade, yet he has seals of the pure.

3: He did not get vindication, says that their warrior tank keeps demo shout up the whole time.

Here's another point: He's also farther progressed than I am. After looking at Ensidia's main paladin tank, it gives the divinity part of his argument some credence. Although, Ensidia's tank doesn't have imp devo aura or the 5/5 SoP.
Ensidia's tank is here: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... gn=Ensidia

So, here are my questions:

Where would 5/5 divinity be used? In raids, I'm getting overhealed out the rear, and healers seem to have NO trouble topping me off.

Also: Can he really pull that much tps or anywhere CLOSE to it? I have always heard that against undead, Crusade + Glyph of Sense Undead is always better than 5/5 SoP.

If someone could do some theorycraft or tests, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm saved to a full clear of ICC10 this week and I may not be able to raid our other raiding night. The tank in question did not supply me with any raid logs, since he was about to tank Dreamwalker when our conversation ended.

It did not help the fact that when I was discussing this, I was in a raid group with his guild who invited me in there to ask me why I thought his spec was wrong. They backed him up on how much threat he puts out.

I could really use some help in either affirming or debunking his beliefs and claims.
Last edited by Blondebunny on Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: My spec feels inadequate...

Postby Blondebunny » Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:45 pm

Here is their web logs, on world of logs, and it's a guild that recently transferred factions, used to be Final Hour on Deathwing, Alliance side. One of their officers tells me it was pugged bad first couple weeks, but here are the logs. The paladin I'm looking at is Emnesty.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/49671/

I'll be honest, I'm not good at analyzing these as far as tps goes, just dps, healing taken/received, etc. Any help on how much actual constant tps he does would be appreciated.
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Re: My spec feels inadequate...

Postby lythac » Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:43 am

1) Divinity is being discussed in this thread

2) DBS25 8k TPS with 1 Tricks and not taking into account MDs (3385*0.178*1.43) + (3385*0.178*1.43*1.8)
DBS25 8.5k TPS with 0 tricks and not taking into account MDs (3583*0.173*1.43) + (3583*0.827*1.43*1.8)

Now, what should he be pulling with that spec?

10609 TPS with a 251 weapon and SoV libram. As he isn't using that libram and has a weaker weapon he shouldn't be surpassing 10k self genrated threat.

With MDs I can see him sitting around 10k threat, omen is bursty.

3) He should still be getting Vind, it may only have a 85-95% uptime but you take it anyway in case Demo Shout falls off. Festergut25, 88.2% uptime on Demo Shout, scroll down the buff list and click the "#" then look at the graph.
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Re: My spec feels inadequate...

Postby Argali » Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:52 am

I'm not trying to be mean, but parts of your query would've answered if you bothered to do some research on it first. Sure, some bits might be hidden a bit, but that's what stickies and links are for.

Blondebunny wrote:2: His threat - He argues that he does 11.5k tps consistently without tricks or MD, and will do about 14k tps with TotT and MD. If you look at his spec, he does not have crusade, yet he has seals of the pure.


It has been proven that in the MatLab TPS thread the speccing into crusade is just better, full stop. There are many uninformed people who exaggerate, or overgear stuff, or get carried. If let's say for example, I have the best 7 healers in the world in my 25, I could skip Imp. RF, Toughness, and Shield of the Templar. I could argue all day long about the DR not being worth it due to overhealing, and the skill of my healers. Doesn't mean I'm right.

Blondebunny wrote:3: He did not get vindication, says that their warrior tank keeps demo shout up the whole time.

Here's another point: He's also farther progressed than I am. After looking at Ensidia's main paladin tank, it gives the divinity part of his argument some credence. Although, Ensidia's tank doesn't have imp devo aura or the 5/5 SoP.
Ensidia's tank is here: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... gn=Ensidia


When looking at specs from high end guilds, they are not cookie cutter specs. Ensidia will always have an Imp.Devo aura from someone. Also, if you can ensure that you have a warrior with 100% attendance, and willing to put enough points into Imp.Demo shout, vindication is not necessary. However, not everyone will have a warrior with 100% attendance who is good enough to keep up demo shout at 100% uptime, and also vindication is 2 points, compared to 4 points in Imp. Demo shout, and does not require a GCD to apply.
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Re: My spec feels inadequate...

Postby theckhd » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:36 am

Blondebunny wrote:2: His threat - He argues that he does 11.5k tps consistently without tricks or MD, and will do about 14k tps with TotT and MD. If you look at his spec, he does not have crusade, yet he has seals of the pure.

Most people don't really have any idea what "sustained threat" means. They look at omen and see numbers in the 11.5k-14k range and think that's their sustained threat. It isn't.

Omen uses some sort of moving average to calculate TPS, but it's not averaged over a long enough period to accurately reflect a rotation. If you watch it while you perform 969, you'll see it spike up to 12k+ after every HotR or ShoR (especially after a crit), and then subside back down to 8-10k during the 9-second casts (especially HS). That 8-10k value is a much more realistic estimate of your average threat output.

The only way to get decent "sustained threat" data is from a log or parse, as Lythac has done. Look at a 30-60 second period and see how much damage and threat you generated during that time.

Effects like AW and Heroism also skew the "sustained threat" values in parses, especially for short fights. A true sustained threat measurement should be in absence of AW/Bloodlust/Tricks/MD. Tricks doesn't stack with AW, yet I'd bet he's popping AW on the pull. He basically has to be to see numbers like 12-14k. I've seen numbers in the 16k range show up on Omen from time to time, but those aren't sustained values - they're when a bunch of different cooldowns line up and I score a lucky crit.

Blondebunny wrote:3: He did not get vindication, says that their warrior tank keeps demo shout up the whole time.

As others have said, this is fine. It's a decision the guild has to make based on raid comp. However, it costs us fewer talent points to pick it up than a Warrior, and doesn't cost us GCDs. So it's generally a net raid DPS increase to let the Paladin do it.

Blondebunny wrote:Here's another point: He's also farther progressed than I am.

This really doesn't mean anything though. One player's spec doesn't mean a whole lot in 25-man raids unless it's particularly crippling. And there aren't many fights in ICC normal that seriously stress the tank's spec. I guarantee that I can perform almost as well if I dropped Improved Righteous Fury and Improved Devotion to pick up Divine Intellect and Benediction. It probably wouldn't prevent me from completing any encounters I've already cleared. But it still wouldn't be a smart decision, nor would it mean that tanks from other guilds should replicate my choices.

Blondebunny wrote:After looking at Ensidia's main paladin tank, it gives the divinity part of his argument some credence. Although, Ensidia's tank doesn't have imp devo aura or the 5/5 SoP.
Ensidia's tank is here: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet ... gn=Ensidia

So, here are my questions:

Where would 5/5 divinity be used? In raids, I'm getting overhealed out the rear, and healers seem to have NO trouble topping me off.

In short, Mackzter is speccing for survivability because Ensidia is pushing the bleeding edge of progression. I wouldn't drop Improved Devo for Divinity personally, but I'd bet that he's got another (probably Holy) paladin in the raid speccing Improved Devo to cover the armor bonus. Given that raid comp, dropping redundant points for Divinity makes sense. Similarly, he's chosen to trade threat (Crusade) for more survivability (Divinity), which is a reasonable choice. He's playing in a high-coordination environment where he knows he can rely on Tricks/MD being cast early on to give him early threat on the boss, and our sustained threat (especially in his gear) is high enough that we rarely have threat issues once we've built up an early lead.

Blondebunny wrote:Also: Can he really pull that much tps or anywhere CLOSE to it? I have always heard that against undead, Crusade + Glyph of Sense Undead is always better than 5/5 SoP.

If someone could do some theorycraft or tests, I'd greatly appreciate it.

It's already been done in the MATLAB thread. There's also a condensed version posted under the Theorycraft section of the "Guides" menu at the top of the page.
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Re: My spec feels inadequate...

Postby Blondebunny » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:39 am

Thank you for the replies. I did think he was over exaggerating. My guildies thought I was getting trolled. His guild thinks really highly of him, which led me to believe it was the former rather than the latter. 11.5k tps did seem a bit too high, even with the new welfare buff that is active in ICC. I also notice, from looking at the log, that he was even exaggerating his hunters' dps, although in some fights, the hunters had a crit string of about 90% or more, which is pretty nice. RNG was just good to them, I guess.

I did do some research, as I scoured the forums. I even looked at the divinity post, but after looking it, I was still scratching my head. True, there are the 3 floater points which I mentioned, but those usually either go into Divine Sac, or 3 into divinity. The guy had divine sac, AND 5/5 divinity which is what I was like, "wtf" at.

I'm glad that I'm not alone in my assertion that crusade is still the top tps spec. I had just wondered, looking at different paladins, if something that I was unaware of had changed. Blizzard does include some "slight" modifications that aren't always mentioned in patch notes.

As far as the vindication, he did mention that they had a warrior tank keep demo shout up all the time, which is fine since the warrior isn't the one main tanking the fight. I am glad, however, that while talking to him, arguing that vindication is better due to the increased uptime it has as opposed to demo shout.


lythac wrote:Now, what should he be pulling with that spec?

10609 TPS with a 251 weapon and SoV libram. As he isn't using that libram and has a weaker weapon he shouldn't be surpassing 10k self genrated threat.


Believe it or not, since I haven't yet seen a log with my improved gear, with my spec, what would one ESTIMATE I should be pulling, since I have crusade? I'll be running some tests tonight, but as of now, I'm at work and unable to do tests. Still, though, without full 25man raid buffs, it's hard for me to know a round about number of what I will be pulling. With the new buff and raid buffs, I was running at 61k hp on Tuesday night.
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Re: Speccing

Postby Mystai » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:20 pm

I remember in Naxx2.0 days, 25 man for me was 16k TPS on patchwork, ofcourse I built my guy around the fact that no bosses hit hard, so i had about 40% block, 19% dodge, and 17% parry, and relatively low HP. But never had any trouble with deaths or anything. But ofcourse I wasnt MT on Sarth 3D, I just rounded up all the adds and 1 of the Dragons;)
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