Prot paladin gameplay... not fun?

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Postby Belarkan » Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:53 am

Vanifae wrote:You can sum up this thread very easily.

Origial Poster: I don't like the way my paladin plays.

Other Posters: I like the way my paladin plays.

Moral of the story: What is good for the gander isn't always good for the goose.

The end.

My moral of the story is that I'm happy blizard did made 3 different tanking classes so that players can choose their gameplay.
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Postby Melathys » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:14 am

Vanifae wrote:
First off changing any ability to something other then holy would call for a change to Righteous Fury or most paladins would not use it, unless it had some innate threat bonus to it. Considering how weak our physical damage is, I don't consider this a good usage of our abilities. Now an ability that debuffs the mob would be nice, some kind of Holy Flash that perhaps increases miss chance, would be a nice and thematic addition to our abilities. (I stole the Flash ability from FF XI)

62 paladin in ffxi, lol (75 thf, whm and nin) but anyway

A flash type spell in wow would actually work very well, using the mechanics from ffxi. 45 second cool down. Adds a great amount of threat (enmity) and greatly reduces the mobs chances to hit you for a short period of time (5secs maybe). For the wow application, it would give us a bit of an ohcrap button. its not 100% miss.. think of moroe's trinket as ohcrap button, but shorter duration and adds threat.

damn, now you have me wanting to go back and play my paladin in ffxi.

as for wow paladin.

I rarely find myself bored. Sure there might be less button pressing, but I have a general awareness of what's going on around me. One of the big things, for me, is watching the raid health bars... 40 yard taunt is pretty nice. Someone pulls a pat? or pulls one of the adds off off tanks?... pull it in with righteous defense. I mainly watch for hunters and resisted traps. That half a second of the mob running at me instead of the hunter is usually all they need to get the situation back under control without an undue strain on healers.
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Postby The Sunthorn » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:07 am

hmm. It's actually kind of an interesting question.. and I sit here and wonder if trying to provide an answer is the old "trying to convey a subjective experience to someone with nothing to identify it with" problem...

I haven't played a warrior tank. I've only ever played a paladin tank. Compared to a lot of the members here, I'm very new - I'm going on my first ever Kara run on Wednesday (supress my immediate panic at not being at 102.4% avoidance here.)

And the way you described paladin tanking - it just made me chuckle and think, wherever did you get *that* idea?

somebody else was talking about the notion of a paladin set rotation, and that kind of makes me laugh too. if I tried to treat every pull the same, we'd all wipe.

what's going on for me when I'm tanking-- I'm controlling the safety of the fight. *HOW* I do that is going to depend so highly on individual circumstances that I don't dare settle on a cookie cutter routine for tanking anything.

I like to open with avenger's shield - but relying on it all the time means that I don't know how to use other player's CC techniques. and it's fine to Captain america all the time if my DPS is three casters, the way it usually is -

I shouldn't say usually. My DPS rotates a lot lately. We have an awesome survival hunter; I need to understand his traps and pulls because knowing them means I have more utility in controlling the safety of the fight. There's a great Marksman hunter as well, and his strengths are different. We also have a wicked assassination rogue and his crowd control methods usually mean me staring at a pull like I just got a rotten leave in american style snooker, trying to work out if I can place a shield *and* have a sap - and if I can't, what should I do instead. If I have a shadow priest rather than a warlock, that's going to change some things. And it's up to me to coordinate everyone so that we're not bumping elbows.

when the pull is actually going on, I'm making judgement call after judgement call. if the pull is smooth and I have a wide aggro lead, I'm going to change my seals for manaback - I might even wheel around and pull another group if it's going really cleanly and we don't need to stop for manaback... because I utilize my group's crowd control and such, and we kind of get off on knowing each other so well that we can do stuff like this - I can fling a shield into the next mob and the melee come running to me, because the mage has counterspelled a caster and the hunter's trapped it, and that other caster is running around saying baaa!

...or if that next group gets pulled by accident and suddenly we have eight where we would have had two (happened in shadow labs today.) That ability to turn an accident around is a product of what I'm thinking about while I'm idly pushing only a few buttons...

Can I describe what pallytanking is like mentally? I have to say that mentally I try for a state of flexibility - I'm setting a strategy in place, but I am ready to adapt and change things at a moment's notice, and it's very hard for me to give up on a fight because the state of mind is purely reactive-instinctive-intuitive. I'm always looking for the way to do it.

What do I mean by flexibility? I use show target of my target, for example. so if the fire mage gets (un)lucky and crits *again* I can see it. he's got my aggro. so do I use Righteous Defense, Hammer of Justice, or Blessing of Protection to bring it back? is it bad enough that I might want to blow an avenging wrath? am I going to have to throw a flash of light on the mage just to make sure he stays up? I have all of these choices. more than one of these could be an effective answer, but I have to choose in an instant - and that means I cannot allow myself to get lulled into always doing the same thing, because habit will get us killed.

And I hate wiping. I really hate it.

So I know if the priest is good on mana, i know if the party's half dead, i know that patrol is coming back, that sheep is about to expire, and the ice trap behind me is melting... and all this information is where my choices come from. Paladin tanking is a heck of a lot of fun for me because of the wide view, intuitive process, and the way I get to work with a group as a Paladin as compared to what i have seen of the warrior tank style.

and I can pull off some *seriously* insane fights....
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Postby Exodius » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:13 am

My previous main was a priest. I am use to looking at health bars.

I love the way you can look around mid fight. You keep an internal timer in your head of how long a sap will last, you turn around and check that freezing trap, you watch that patrol lurking very close to a CC'd mob... there is a whole lot to take in.

I'm Australian too. My lag is normally 400ms, and that's good. 600ms is common too. 200ms and it's an amazing thing.

Because mobs will tend to stick even if I stand there, this all gives me a bit more breathing room while tanking and planning things. I don't "absolutely must" have to spam the next button if I have the massive threat leads that paladins have.

Just more stuff to chew on. :D
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Postby elson » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:49 am

I agree with what others have said about how it is easier to manage the cool downs and as a result you can have a greater awareness of whats going on. Most of my threat does the work for me. This allows me the ability to watch the whole raid and call out things as needed etc while still maintaining my max tps. It also allows me the ability to taunt or do other special abilities at crucial moments instead of focusing on my cool downs.

I've boped a caster across the raid from me while main tanking something and saved their squishy self, or even taunted krosh in the mulgar fight off a healer and tanked both mulgar/krosh until our second mage picked him up. Overall it just allows me a bird's eye view of whats going on in the raid which gives me the ability to affect the outcome of the fight more.. which is one of the main reasons I like tanking to begin with.

While the actual game play of a paladin tank certainly does take less effort/skill a greater level of skill is required in order to effectively gear a paladin tank. Neither of the two prot warriors in my guild knew the combat table before I started ranting in guild chat one day, and the sad part is they didn't have to. So much of the warrior tank is built-in, intuitive and natural. One of them still can't figure out why the new badge bracers are better for warriors (in most cases) then the ones off void reaver because he thinks he needs the block rating.. When with shield block up he is no where close to being crushable and he is trying to lower his avoidance because of being rage starved often. (no he's not going for passive immunity, not even sure he's aware its possible). Yet he is still able to show up to raids and help us down bosses.

Meanwhile we have another member who played a hybrid prot/holy build who for the life of him could not figure out why he got owned by prince every time he tries to tank, or why he can't hold aggro with a kings defender. Without extensive knowledge of game mechanics and the ability to gear in a very specific way it won't matter how hard you try, how aware you are, or what type of reaction times you have. You just wont have the tools for the job. The real skill in playing a paladin tank comes in building the machine that does the work for you. It's an engineering masterpiece :)
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Postby Belarkan » Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:55 am

elson wrote:It's an engineering masterpiece :)

Geek inside(tm).
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Postby Pribeaux » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:08 am

I had a warrior up to the mid 40s once. I deleted it.

I also have 5 paladins of various levels 25-70.

It's all a matter of perception. I like playing every class in the game except warrior. This same OP could be writen for any class.

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Postby Soltyr » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:16 pm

Lore wrote:Simply put, because Paladin tanking is easier than Warrior tanking, we can use that to our advantage to have a better sense of what's going on - and act on it - than a Warrior can. If you were to ask a Warrior tank how much mana his healers have in the middle of a fight he'd probably tell you he has more important things to pay attention to (and he does). Or more likely he'd probably just ignore you and keep hitting his buttons. Meanwhile I'm able to take a loot at my healer mana and pop trinkets etc to give them a breather if they need it.

Agree me too.
Sometime I find useful, while tanking, moving the camera to look around, keeping an eye on healer or possible incoming mobs (though sometime I hate it, RD is amazing as ranged taunt).
I don't find the paladin tanking so boring. I like also the extra second in the rotation, they let me free time to cast a cleanse for example, BoPing the healer or (why not) reblessing battlerezed ppl sometime.
Maybe the only moment where I find myself incapable is the "shit-moment". If not in c/d there are just trinket, potion/HS or LoH, otherwise my mouse start to move around looking for last desperate thing to push... with the bubble-button smiles me.
Though I've started (when possible) to prevent some bad moment casting LoH on the OOM healer rather tha me (so bad we can't do talented LoH easily).

Other stuff:

- I like to see HS as physical ability (so castable while silenced and undispellable).

- Zero mana cost on SoW

- AS a bit more twinked. Something like 15sec c/d, dealing a few less dmg but with a threat modifier as HS.

- I'm not sure if I like the idea of a Cons with longer duration or more exactly with a longer c/d. This can mean a possible increasing of mana cost (bad thing), making also more arduous movable fight.

- While tanking is ok, no tanking is really boring and also useless.
I mean, if there is another tank on boss, give me something to do, so that I don't feel myself like a cheerleader with a Nightfall pon-pon :(
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Postby cordelia » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:03 am

For those of you who find 5mans boring, I wanted to share what I find challenging about 5mans.

Firstly, I tend to run with the same set of people, who are all great dps. I've collected good dps and good heals, so I can push 5man content faster and more aggressively. What that means as tank is that I'm constantly thinking about multi-target aggro. It's not just spam consecrate and holy shield if your mage is going to walk in during the 2nd consecrate and start spamming arcane explosions. You'll end up with a dead mage that way. If I have cc, I have to consider when to break cc to maximize effectiveness. I have to consider when to use HoJ to ease healer strain. Mob placement must be considered, with regards to the distance from pats, how to optimize the next pull, how to ensure AE doesn't touch ranged dps, etc. Auras must be considered. Does this mob do fire damage, or is there an ice mage/lock mob? Do you need to cleanse self/others? Do you want to lose aggro on purpose, and then taunt/HoJ in order to save mana? I often switch off the primary mob with 2/3rds of its health left to stack aggro on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th targets knowing that my dps will pull the first target, and knowing that I can either taunt it back or HoJ for the remainder of its life.

Certainly, 5mans become easy, but the question is how easy? How fast can you run heroic SP? 40 minutes? 30 minutes? 25 minutes? I push and challenge my dps to try and consistently keep me under 20% of total damage which is not easy, especially if we run with non-uber dps.

Someone mentioned that feral druids don't have to drink and can chain pull. So can tankadins if they manage their mana properly, but can you figure out how to do that? Sometimes I find myself rushing too much, and realize I risk wiping if I start a pull with only 1k mana and potions on CD, and have to reign myself in and slow the pace.

There is always a way to make something that seems EZ-mode into a challenge.
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Postby Aerron » Sun Dec 02, 2007 7:14 am

I came the opposite direction from the OP. I played a Prot Warrior before TBC and some after, at least as far as up through SSC/TK.

Then I switched and made a Prot Paladin. IMO, the Paladin is immensely more fun. I actually HATED the "I'll just spam sunder/devastate/toss an occasional Shield Slam" of the Warrior after awhile. To me, the Warrior was a massive spam fest. The Paladin is more a rythmic, fluid dance where you have to remember all the steps or you get an epic fail.

Couple of things here:

1) Alot of it maybe the newness of the class. If you played a Paladin or Warrior from the beginning of retail, a switch is always nice.

2) Alot of it is style. I could never play a priest, but my gf loves hers. What's fun for one person isn't always fun for another, as the poster a few back summed up about "what's good fo the goose may not be good for th gander".

3) finally, the further you tank in the endgame, the more fun the paladin becomes. I'm finding this true as I begin to make my entry into 25mans again. Probably a question of style once more, but I found them irritating and stressful on my Warrior.
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Postby Kitria » Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:37 pm

I've had the pleasure of tanking with all three of the tanking classes, and out of them I find the paladin the most fun and engaging.

Warrior button spam can be reduced to one macro. What fun is that? If you don't macro it up like that, then it's pretty engaging, but not very fun. I like having a second or two between things to assess the situation, fire off a quick tell, and other stuff.

Druid tanking is pretty fun. Rage isn't a problem usually, and you can dish out enough damage to keep up with a slack DPSer. It's not very engaging though, since it consists of chain Lacerate, Mangle, and maul when you have the rage for it. 2 buttons pressed pretty much every time the GCD and their cooldown (mangle) is up.

Paladin tanking is both fun and engaging. Paladins have a large array of skills that might be situational, but who ever objected to having a few extra functions on a Swiss Army Knife? The part I enjoy most is it's a far more mental tanking exercise. You have Consecrate that's EZmode AoE aggro sure, but what if you aren't AoEing the entire group? You have to be aware of your surroundings and what's going on. Tanking multiples and can't use consecrate? how are you going to do it well if your primary threat move is on an 8/10 second cooldown? It's a challenge. What's more is that the thinking includes both in-game second-by-second decision making, and ALSO meta-game thinking for gear selection and strategizing. Druids stack agility, armor, and stamina. Warriors stack stamina, dodge, block, and armor to some degree. Paladins have to gear extremely carefully to maintain an additional secondary stat that neither warriors nor druids deal with.

In short, I would agree... Warriors are tactical tanks, Paladins are strategic tanks, and Druids are just proof that if you have enough armor and hp you can kill anything. =P
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Postby Comma » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:10 pm

I just read 4 pages every reply, unbelievable!

Kaen wrote:
Nicos wrote:I think warrior tanking is boring, personally. Span Sunder + Devastate = win.
There is a ton to think about, at all times, a lot to control, and to keep under control. If you think it's just mashing devastate = win, grats on your 400tps and I hope your guild downs Attumen soon.
Dont need to be defensive man and use such sarcasm, it was only his personal thinking at the first place.

shadowaif wrote:I've seen wonderful warrior tanks in action and a lot of really, really bad warrior tanks (wtf opening with taunt? what? really?). I haven't run with that many prot pallys, but I've seen some good and some pretty horrible ones.

Good players are a joy to play with regardless of what class they play -- the majority of the folks I run with consistently all have several 70s, any of which they are really, really, really good at.
Big signed! :D

Alright, back to topic. I personally dont understand why having more spare time is not fun, like others have already stated many times, within the spare time, we can observe the group/raid status more and know the fight better, for example, if we wipe, was the healers casting fast enough? Were ppl on right position? Was there a loose mob running around killing ppl? Is there too much group/raid dmg taken? etc, rather than focusing on myself only.

A typical example from my experience:
H-SV first boss with 2 elementals, warrior tanking, Im on priest healing. We wiped because tank died/I go oom. The warrior insisted that it was my healing problem, because his hp was half time at 50%. In fact, the group took a lot of dmg from the cloud thing, dot thing, and dmg from those elementals (no cc on elementals), so I had to heal everyone. Plus the warrior's lack of experience on dodging the cloud, didnt move, heal didnt land in time, tank died. So being unable to look around checking group/raid status blinds you from the details of fights.

--- coffee break---

I do envy some availabilities from warrior tanks:
Thunderclap - attack speed from boss slowed
Demo shout - decreases boss ap.
Spell reflect - less spell dmg taken and its handy for some specific encounters
Sunder armor - more dps for melee/hunter
Stance dance - to be immune to fear / 2nd taunt / intercept / Hamstring
Shield Bash - spell interruption

Dont have to watch Righteous Fury. (I just wiped the raid because of having no righteous fury the first time last weekend, woot!)
Dont have to buff every class in the raid and track the buff duration.
Dont need to worry about mana.
No threat problem because of silence, apart from taunt.
etc etc

But we have a lot of availabilities warrior dont have as well, if we want/need everything, why doesnt blizzard just make one tanking class which umm probably is called Waruidin? :P
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Postby Caelia » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:24 pm

Comma wrote:But we have a lot of availabilities warrior dont have as well, if we want/need everything, why doesnt blizzard just make one tanking class which umm probably is called Waruidin? :P

i would love to see warrior aoe tank 25 black temple supplement dudes.... (as effectively and quickly as we can)
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Postby Lynk » Sun Dec 02, 2007 8:59 pm

Give us an extra spammable ability so shitty mages don't sheep all over my consecrate area.

Not being able to drop consecrate on cc sensitive encounters nerfs our threat something severe; and hence, I would like to see an ability not unlike shield slam for us to make us of.

Not having spammable abilities is fine, as it's what makes us different to warriors, but it would be nice to have an extra ability on single target that helps with threat, but doesn't break cc (yes, it's ironic as we're built with AE tanking in mind).

And they better hurry up and patch the damn righteous fury bug, where it's costing us ~1400 mana instead of ~700. Makes buffing a pita; especially in Hyjal @_@

TLDR version: Give me shield slam.
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Re: yarly

Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:07 am

Lynk wrote:TLDR version: Give me shield slam.

I has a shield. Lets me hits you with it.
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