Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

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Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby econ21 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:50 am

A DK asked me the above question the other day and, not knowing about squat about DK skills, I was unsure how to answer. I worried that it was the equivalent of righteous fury, but reading a little, that would be frost presence. Death and decay sounds closer to consecration. In which case, the answer should be "sure". Is that right?

As it was, I was non-committal and whatever the DK did, it was not a problem.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Nikachelle » Mon Mar 01, 2010 7:54 am

Consecration takes a second or so to tick through on a mob, DnD on the other hand is an IMMEDIATE tick. Which means the DK is going to pull aggro if they use it on the pull before the tank has had a chance to do anything.

That being said, if you're skilled and/or geared enough though, as the tank, it doesn't really matter. If they're using it mid rotation, it's not even remotely a problem.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:03 am

D&D also generates extra threat, so just 'cause you
can outdamage a knight's Death and Decay doesn't automatically
mean you will out-threat it.

Ask him to wait x seconds before dropping it, where x will
depend on the gear differential between him and you. (If
your gear is about even, 2-3 seconds should be enough.)
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby greatcow95 » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:27 pm

I despise Death and Decay along with every other AoE "Circle of Turds" attack, simply because everything tends to beat me laying down the Golden Pally Fart. I also hate the DK using Army of IWIN every time it comes up.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby bldavis » Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:03 pm

greatcow95 wrote: I also hate the DK using Army of IWIN every time it comes up.


this

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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Folstar » Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:14 pm

I let this use it whenever they want. It only gets used on trash so even if the DK pulls aggro for an instant before consecrate ticks it won't matter *or* the DK will die and learn to not drop dnd so soon- either way a win.

DKs & Army- they should be using it all the time. As buttons go AoTD is just about the most powerful one anyone can push in WoW- why wouldn't you want DKs using it??? A well timed Army can save the day (ex- oh crap the other tank just died on Precious and I still have a stack we're doomed, DOOO... oh wait the dk popped army, hooray) and is fun to watch. Honestly I'm getting so jealous thinking about it that in Cataclysm Paladins need an 'Army of Angels' ability or we should strike.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Baelik » Tue Mar 02, 2010 12:03 am

DnD does pull a lot of aggro but you have to be ready for it. A tank is not happy when the DK drops DnD before the tank gets the the scene. DnD would be fine for 3-4 mobs but when the number goes beyond that its hard to pull back aggro in time.

Let them use Army whenever they want is just bad information for budding tanks. Don't let them use it whenever they want. Let them use it when it is safe to do so. I had an incident in Rotface encounter where we had a late Army during the fight and I found myself constantly fighting for aggro on the Big Ooze. Needless to say wipe ensued. We can't win aggro fights with army till they die.

Army is a very powerful tool and we should encourage its use and use it often. But "whenever" is not ideal way to use it.

Edit: Death Gripping is also annoying if its done selfishly to cut down DPS time. It however is very welcome when someone uses Death Grip to position a mob near the tank before it runs to the healer. Smart DK DPS rock.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:45 am

Folstar wrote:DKs & Army- they should be using it all the time. As buttons go AoTD is just about the most powerful one anyone can push in WoW- why wouldn't you want DKs using it???


There are DKs who aren't discriminating about when to hit that key, is the trouble. It causes the tank to lose facing control and positioning control of the boss, which means...

* You can't drag Ymiron away from his doom-orbs
* You can't kite that ethereal guy away from his doom-orbs
* You can't keep dragons' mouths and tails pointed in safe directions
* You can't pull The Black Knight out of desecration
* You can't pull the undead rogue out of poison puddles
* You can't point Mal'Ganis's carrion swarm, Ingvar's Dark Smash or Anub'arak's Pound away from the group
* Melee DPS get knocked back and/or cloven
* Various other bad things

...and just because most of us outgear those fights to the point where we can be sloppy and still win, doesn't mean sloppiness is a virtue.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Hokahey » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:17 pm

Arcand wrote:
Folstar wrote:DKs & Army- they should be using it all the time. As buttons go AoTD is just about the most powerful one anyone can push in WoW- why wouldn't you want DKs using it???


There are DKs who aren't discriminating about when to hit that key, is the trouble. It causes the tank to lose facing control and positioning control of the boss, which means...

* You can't drag Ymiron away from his doom-orbs
* You can't kite that ethereal guy away from his doom-orbs
* You can't keep dragons' mouths and tails pointed in safe directions
* You can't pull The Black Knight out of desecration
* You can't pull the undead rogue out of poison puddles
* You can't point Mal'Ganis's carrion swarm, Ingvar's Dark Smash or Anub'arak's Pound away from the group
* Melee DPS get knocked back and/or cloven
* Various other bad things

...and just because most of us outgear those fights to the point where we can be sloppy and still win, doesn't mean sloppiness is a virtue.


All this. AotD is a powerful ability to be sure, but I've seen it wipe groups more than once when used wrong. Does it always happen this way? No, but why make a stupidly easy fight harder than it has to be?

As for DnD, I can't honestly remember the last time someone pulled aggro off me with this while DPSing and not in Frost Presence. I suppose if you tunnel vision 1 mob and rely on Cleave/splash/AoE damage alone to hold threat on others, it could be a problem, maybe. Since I'm too lazy to be bothered with marking in 5 mans anymore, I make sure to pay attention to which mobs are getting beat on most (usually the closest to the rest of the group) and focus most of my attention on that 1.

I can only really see DnD as a serious threat issue if:
A) The DK is multiple tiers of gear ahead of the tank (in which case, they can probably take some hits).
B) The tank is face-pulling packs of mobs and expecting impatient DPS to wait forever to do their job (kill stuff) so he can "build threat" (at which point I will make your life hell if I'm DPSing for you).

Point is, its rarely an issue for competent tanks.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:26 pm

The only time I get headaches from Death and Decay is when
they take advantage of its reach, and plop it down on the bad
guys before I've even touched them. But that's pretty much the
extreme of obnoxiousness and doesn't happen often at all.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby greatcow95 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:19 pm

Arcand wrote:The only time I get headaches from Death and Decay is when
they take advantage of its reach, and plop it down on the bad
guys before I've even touched them. But that's pretty much the
extreme of obnoxiousness and doesn't happen often at all.


And I hope they died from this...several painful humiliating times.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Arcand » Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:37 pm

greatcow95 wrote:
Arcand wrote:The only time I get headaches from Death and Decay is when
they take advantage of its reach, and plop it down on the bad
guys before I've even touched them. But that's pretty much the
extreme of obnoxiousness and doesn't happen often at all.


And I hope they died from this...several painful humiliating times.


I would have liked that, but they survived because I compulsively play Arcand as a much better person than myself. :)
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:36 am

greatcow95 wrote:
Arcand wrote:The only time I get headaches from Death and Decay is when
they take advantage of its reach, and plop it down on the bad
guys before I've even touched them. But that's pretty much the
extreme of obnoxiousness and doesn't happen often at all.


And I hope they died from this...several painful humiliating times.

I ask the healer to not heal the player and just stand there chilling while the dk tries very hard to stay alive or doesn't even pay attention and just goes about hitting the mobs.

Folstar wrote:I let this use it whenever they want. It only gets used on trash so even if the DK pulls aggro for an instant before consecrate ticks it won't matter *or* the DK will die and learn to not drop dnd so soon- either way a win.

I agree but....

Folstar wrote:DKs & Army- they should be using it all the time. As buttons go AoTD is just about the most powerful one anyone can push in WoW- why wouldn't you want DKs using it??? A well timed Army can save the day (ex- oh crap the other tank just died on Precious and I still have a stack we're doomed, DOOO... oh wait the dk popped army, hooray) and is fun to watch. Honestly I'm getting so jealous thinking about it that in Cataclysm Paladins need an 'Army of Angels' ability or we should strike.

A timed army can save the day yeah but when they are using it willy-nilly on every single boss it is really annoying, not to mention that I am not getting hit by the boss as much and thus mana sucks, especially when you wayy outgear the instance and mana is a problem any way. It just compounds it. And like Arcand said, positioning of mobs is much more of a headache when army is out.
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Anorian » Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:51 am

the countless times army fucked up an anub'arakh kill... oh hai i has army and now you cant tank the adds anymore oh hai they submerged :@:@:@
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Re: Is the tank happy with me using Death and Decay?

Postby Vorianloken » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:24 am

Anorian wrote:the countless times army fucked up an anub'arakh kill... oh hai i has army and now you cant tank the adds anymore oh hai they submerged :@:@:@


I tend to ask DK's in my raid to pop it when the second set of adds are at about 10% hp (first submerge). By the time they are finished channeling, the adds have dropped further and are pretty much dead already. As soon as the add die the armies just ra*e the hell out of the scarabs. :P
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