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[DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Hokahey » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:39 am

Vorianloken wrote:
Levantine wrote:
Vorianloken wrote:And slightly off-topic but if you do get a Liar's Tongue, then you can try an unholy dual-wield dps build where offhand speed is irrelvant and you can use a fast weapon in the OH.

Horrible idea and if I see any of you doing it I'll laugh at you.


I've actually tried it :)

But the circumstances were more along the lines of me only having dual beer mugs from brewfest and never having seen a slow weapon from toc and then I lucked out in toc25 and got the fast 1H weapon so I used that for a good while until I finally got around to having dual nighttime's but now I am blood 2H, although with the next patch i am going back to my true love which is frost dw :)


Unholy/Frost DW (commonly referred to as Shadowfrost) died with the changes to Killing Machine, among other things. A deep Unholy build would be terrible for DW, regardless of weapon speed and this has always been the case.

Threat of Thassarian is what makes dual-wield fairly close to on par with 2h builds right now. ToT gets the most benefit from using 2 slow weapons.

While I love originality as much as anyone, 50+ points in Frost is practically mandatory for Dual Wielding as a DK, and 2 slow weapons is the only appropriate way to gear as DPS. A fast weapon would have be several tiers higher to equal the value of a slow for DPS.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:45 pm

Hokahey wrote:Unholy/Frost DW (commonly referred to as Shadowfrost) died with the changes to Killing Machine, among other things. A deep Unholy build would be terrible for DW, regardless of weapon speed and this has always been the case.

Threat of Thassarian is what makes dual-wield fairly close to on par with 2h builds right now. ToT gets the most benefit from using 2 slow weapons.

While I love originality as much as anyone, 50+ points in Frost is practically mandatory for Dual Wielding as a DK, and 2 slow weapons is the only appropriate way to gear as DPS. A fast weapon would have be several tiers higher to equal the value of a slow for DPS.


Then may I redirect you to http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t64830-dw_b ... e_offhand/

and I've tried both builds for about 1.5-2months each and I had pretty good results.. about 4.5-5k dps average in toc25 with spikes of 7.5-8.5k on twins and about 6-7k on anub /shrug

Granted an actual dw frost build or a 2h blood build performs much better but isn't part of the game doing what you enjoy? and I had fun as unholy dw :)
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US-Medivh Power! 7th April 2010 - The day when Dual-Wield Frost Tanking was assassinated. R.I.P my dear friend.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Levantine » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:22 pm

You're doing it wrong though.

DW Unholy was entirely viable back when Scourge Strike sucked. Now it's just a sign of a bad player.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Hokahey » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:30 pm

Vorianloken wrote:
Granted an actual dw frost build or a 2h blood build performs much better but isn't part of the game doing what you enjoy? and I had fun as unholy dw :)


Sure. Can I go Melee Hunter, and you take me to raids? Melee Warlock? How about Smite DPS spec as a Priest? Combat Rogue using 2 fast daggers? Arms/Fury Warrior wielding 2x1h? "True hybrid" Druid? You may laugh, but I've seen all of the above, and I've seen people defend them using the very line you just did.

At what point would you compromise what is personally enjoyable for what is the best performance for your group? Would you be offended if a raid leader benched you for taking a suboptimal spec/gear combination to a progression raid?
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Vorianloken » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:31 pm

Levantine wrote:You're doing it wrong though.

DW Unholy was entirely viable back when Scourge Strike sucked. Now it's just a sign of a bad player.


my first outing as dw unholy was the RP spam build that doesn't pick up SS :) I just lost interest some time after 3.3 launch though and went to blood since it was the only dps spec I hadn't tried yet. Now I am debating whether to go unholy 2h or back to dw-frost, especially considering that frost is getting some nice buffs and the unholy changes are rather small tweaks than anything meaningful.

Hokahey wrote:
Vorianloken wrote:
Granted an actual dw frost build or a 2h blood build performs much better but isn't part of the game doing what you enjoy? and I had fun as unholy dw :)


Sure. Can I go Melee Hunter, and you take me to raids? Melee Warlock? How about Smite DPS spec as a Priest? Combat Rogue using 2 fast daggers? Arms/Fury Warrior wielding 2x1h? "True hybrid" Druid? You may laugh, but I've seen all of the above, and I've seen people defend them using the very line you just did.

At what point would you compromise what is personally enjoyable for what is the best performance for your group? Would you be offended if a raid leader benched you for taking a suboptimal spec/gear combination to a progression raid?


All correct points. Like I said however, I got slightly subpar performance compared to equivalently geared dw frost players in those raids, not to mention that the static toc25 pugs i did on the toon were filled with caster dps and me as the only one bringing ebon plague was a big thing for the group :)
Vorianloken - 80 Prot/Ret || Ajeet - 80 Frost Tank/Unholy DPS || Nunnaly - 80 Cat/Tree Druid || Bulveye - 74 Protection Warrior || Sherana - 80 Combat Rogue || Shadallas - 40 Demo Warlock

US-Medivh Power! 7th April 2010 - The day when Dual-Wield Frost Tanking was assassinated. R.I.P my dear friend.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Levantine » Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:18 am

Vorianloken wrote:
Levantine wrote:You're doing it wrong though.

DW Unholy was entirely viable back when Scourge Strike sucked. Now it's just a sign of a bad player.


my first outing as dw unholy was the RP spam build that doesn't pick up SS :) I just lost interest some time after 3.3 launch though and went to blood since it was the only dps spec I hadn't tried yet. Now I am debating whether to go unholy 2h or back to dw-frost, especially considering that frost is getting some nice buffs and the unholy changes are rather small tweaks than anything meaningful.


Willfull ignorance is the only thing that irritates me more than the regular kind. I won't be acknowledging posts regarding the topic of DW unholy after this as I value my sanity. DW Unholy was viable pre-3.3 because of the lackluster Scourge Strike. 3.3 changed this and there is currently no way for DW Unholy to come close being viable. It's a dick spec for dick players who insist on clinging to a dead spec for shits and giggles. Blood is most assuredly not the only DW spec. 2h-Unholy is currently superior and DW Frost is theoretically not far behind either and is valuable in a raid without an Enhance Shaman and will be on par once 3.3.3 rolls out.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Pizbit » Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:49 pm

So I've finally picked up Nighttime x2.
Started playing around with specs - keeping in mind the IIT changes in 3.3.3 - for 5mans and the odd weekly raid maybe.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jfVZhbexA0ckf0cuzAof0h DW DPS, pondering dropping deathchill since I always forget to use it, and 1 from morbidity for 2/2 Epidemic.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZhxexA0czc0fhzAo0xb DW tank - This one has annoyed me in trying to get all the useful/fun stuff and I'm not happy with it.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby blakk » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:37 pm

No UA in that tank build? tbh frost doesn't need to pick up a better dnd as howling blast does better damage and threat and depending on your luck can be used much much more often. i'd drop morbitity for UA and something else if you want IIT. if not you can go with a build that can pick up more fun times
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Pizbit » Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:44 pm

Pretty much because I almost never remembered to use UA in my current tanking build and morbidity far out weighs it. Morbidity also pwns in heroics.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Folstar » Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:15 am

Pizbit wrote:Pretty much because I almost never remembered to use UA in my current tanking build and morbidity far out weighs it. Morbidity also pwns in heroics.


I read this as "Pretty much because I can not manage a short cooldown (+simple macro) and do not understand how OB spamming/rime procs work".
No one offering helpful advice deserved to be confronted with this caliber of willful bad-ness.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Pizbit » Fri Feb 26, 2010 1:56 am

mis-read, retyping.
Folstar wrote:
Pizbit wrote:Pretty much because I almost never remembered to use UA in my current tanking build and morbidity far out weighs it. Morbidity also pwns in heroics.


I read this as "Pretty much because I can not manage a short cooldown (+simple macro) and do not understand how OB spamming/rime procs work".
No one offering helpful advice deserved to be confronted with this caliber of willful bad-ness.


A short cooldown I very very rarely needed to use, in fact I can't recall where it'd have made much of a diffence where IBF fills what cooldown needs there are in 5mans and doesn't work against magic damage. Sure it'll boost threat a little, but that's only a minor factor overall.

Bad-ness? We're talking 5mans for crying out loud. What is better after HB than DnD in 5mans? Howling Blast has a cooldown unless you get a Rime proc in which case it doesn't cost the runes used on DnD, and that only procs off Obliterate which I would never use in an aoe situation over DnD.
Yes sure I *could* oblit after HB and hope for a rime proc, but I rather the certainty and saying all frost tanks who use DnD for trash are "willful bad-ness" is pathetic. You fail to even post any details backing your position.
DnD comes out a very significant amount of overall damage, how is buffing that "bad-ness" exactly?

Obviously single target I wouldn't be using DnD, but the bulk of 5mans isn't single target and so dropping a minor cooldown that is only extremely rarely needed and even more rarely effective against the type of damage that tends to cause the need for a cooldown in favour of a significant boost to very nearly every single pull is a clear cut good decision.

Perhaps you should have read the thread in full before replying with your poorly thought out reply.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Gracerath » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:27 am

The one place that Unbreakable Armor actually shines is heroics. Due to the nature of smaller hits in heroics, the absorb effect of UA is really quite noticable. Is it needed often? Naw. Does it rock when it is needed? Yep.

I just did a cursory look at the mobile armory and did a quick talent build. Why is there talk of morbidity vs UA? You can get both.

All that said, its not necessarily "bad" to not use it but if the goal is to just run heroics with said DK, heroics is the one place where UA is more useful beyond the strength bonus and you don't really lose anything by taking it.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:35 am

Gracerath, I think it was an old version of UA that absorbed damage based on your armor (powerful against small hits). Current UA is a flat +25% armor +10% Strength boost, most powerful against hard melee hits. Next patch the Strength portion is being buffed to 20%, so it'll be a pretty nice threat/dps cooldown.
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Gracerath » Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:01 am

Well that will teach me to not pay attention to tooltips on my iphone armory :P

That actually makes it pretty attractive as a raid tanking cooldown. I guess I missed the memo!
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Re: [DK-Tank] Frost tanking weapon choice

Postby Hokahey » Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:57 am

Folstar wrote:
Pizbit wrote:Pretty much because I almost never remembered to use UA in my current tanking build and morbidity far out weighs it. Morbidity also pwns in heroics.


I read this as "Pretty much because I can not manage a short cooldown (+simple macro) and do not understand how OB spamming/rime procs work".
No one offering helpful advice deserved to be confronted with this caliber of willful bad-ness.


No need to be so aggressive. UA is pretty damn optional right now, particularly for heroics. Do I prefer it over Morbidity? Yes. Do I ever run into scenarios where Morbidity would have been more helpful than UA? Yes. Its not a gamebreaking talent, and someone isn't "bad" for not taking it to use in heroics.
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