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Armsman

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Armsman

Postby yappo » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:11 pm

When, if ever, would Armsman make a comeback for a 'generic' pally tank?

My question is based on having read somewhere (possibly here, but not certain) that dps-spec dps scales better with gear compared to tank-spec dps. As tank threat to a major extent is based on the underlying dps it seems reasonable that at some point maintaining threat would become impossible.

Now, if the answer is: at an average ilevel 400 given the current mechanism, then that answer is in reality: never. But if the lines cross at, say ilevel 280, then we arguably have a point at which Armsman becomes the BiS enchant for gloves.


Reposted here as per suggestion from Digren
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Re: Armsman

Postby hoho » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:11 am

Armsman shouldn't be really musthave enchant as long as you have hunters and rogues in raid. There are only a few specs out there that can't drop threat and for them you usually have a few paladins for salvation in raid.
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Re: Armsman

Postby theckhd » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:25 am

yappo wrote:When, if ever, would Armsman make a comeback for a 'generic' pally tank?

My question is based on having read somewhere (possibly here, but not certain) that dps-spec dps scales better with gear compared to tank-spec dps. As tank threat to a major extent is based on the underlying dps it seems reasonable that at some point maintaining threat would become impossible.

Now, if the answer is: at an average ilevel 400 given the current mechanism, then that answer is in reality: never. But if the lines cross at, say ilevel 280, then we arguably have a point at which Armsman becomes the BiS enchant for gloves.


Reposted here as per suggestion from Digren


This is going to be a tricky question to answer for a few reasons.
  1. One problem is that while we know how our threat scales, we don't have a good model for our gear scaling. In other words, do we gain STR, hit, expertise, and so on linearly with ilvl, or is it a different function?

    Since most of our threat is from STR, we could make a simple model of a hit- and expertise-capped paladin whose only threat variation occurs due to STR on gear. If you made up sample gear sets from T7, T8, T9, and T10 levels of gear, and plotted the STR versus ilvl (or tier), then we could make a rough approximation of that STR progression.

    Another simple model we could try is to take one slot and analyze that. For example, if you took every tanking helm in Wrath and wrote down the ilvl and the STR included on the item, you could make a simple table, which you could then plot and/or fit to figure out how the STR increases with ilvl. You'd probably want to repeat it for several slots to see that they agreed (i.e. that STR increases the same way on Helms that it does on Chest, Legs, etc.).

    Once you have that sort of model, it would be very easy to use that scaling function to estimate our threat as a function of ilvl in a hit- and expertise-capped set. That would tell you how we scale with gear.
  2. Problem #2 is that we'd need a model for how the DPS classes scale with gear. That's a bit harder or a bit easier depending on how you look at it. Each class scales differently with different stats, so it's nigh impossible to use a single-stat progression like STR. It works well for us because we're "one-trick ponies" as far as threat stats, but it'll fail miserably for a DPS class.

    There are two ways I can imagine approaching the problem though:
    • Analytically/Numerically: Use tools like Simcraft, Rawr, or spreadsheets to crank out DPS values for different gear sets. This will be time consuming and tedious, especially since you'll want to maintain hit-cap and so on. Rawr might do the best for this since you could imagine enabling all gear of a certain ilvl and below and letting it optimize at each threshold. But it'll still take a long damn time.

      Once you have those numbers, we can plot/fit/etc. and compare.
    • Empyrically: Look over WoL parses for different instances at different times. This would be a pain in the ass, and probably harder than the above version. You'd want to isolate variations, so you'd ideally like 2-3 months worth of parses for a single boss with the same 25 raiders to see how their dps improved from the previous tier (the first week they walked in the instance) to the next tier (when they're coming back on farm status and breezing through it). Good luck getting that sort of consistency though. You'd also want to do it for a few different players from each class to help minimize player variability. I think it could be done, but it would be a massive undertaking and probably give you worse estimates than Rawr would despite taking 10x as long or more.


So it could potentially be done. But I don't think it's worth it (though I'm curious to see the STR progression for us, just out of academic interest). At least as far as I can tell, the only time that threat is a serious issue is on the pull. Once I've had 5-10 seconds with the boss, nobody's even remotely close to me in sustained threat output, even in full "max survivability" gear. And since we have several options for boosting initial aggro (AW, Tricks, Misdirect, taunts) it doesn't seem to be a crucial issue.

Keep in mind that Armsman isn't a "snap threat" enchant, it's a sustained threat enchant. It doesn't matter if your ShoR did 2% more or less threat in the first 5 seconds of the fight, because if you're losing aggro there it'll usually be to a big crit that leapfrogs you noticeably (or a string of misses on your part). Armsman is for that extra 200TPS that keeps you ahead of the players riding your ass the whole fight.
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Re: Armsman

Postby gibborim » Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:08 pm

theckhd wrote:[*]Empyrically: Look over WoL parses for different instances at different times. This would be a pain in the ass, and probably harder than the above version. You'd want to isolate variations, so you'd ideally like 2-3 months worth of parses for a single boss with the same 25 raiders to see how their dps improved from the previous tier (the first week they walked in the instance) to the next tier (when they're coming back on farm status and breezing through it). Good luck getting that sort of consistency though. You'd also want to do it for a few different players from each class to help minimize player variability. I think it could be done, but it would be a massive undertaking and probably give you worse estimates than Rawr would despite taking 10x as long or more.[/list][/list]


This doesn't really work at all. Quite a few classes act differently on farm fights than on progression fights and CD uptimes on things like BL and dps pots change alot. For example, an arcane mage doing Twins progression would be doing a standard 50/50 split on AB/AM and have like 18% BL uptime, but the same mage would just be spamming AB and have 60%+ BL uptime on a real farming of Twins.
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Re: Armsman

Postby jathitimus » Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:42 pm

Progression fights so far have not had major threat issues, on farm content threat is completely different ball game as most good tanks run with atleast 90% effeicency on the rotation while dps can really improve alot once the fight starts moving faster and they know how to cordinate spells with the timing of the encounter.

Once stuff is on farm one option is to use the threat enchant for gloves, but the other option is to simply sub in more threat gear. Put on a dps trinket, use a slow one hander, use some dps gear to cap hit and expertise, put on the str libram and give your salv button a workout.
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Re: Armsman

Postby Ragingsoul » Sat Feb 27, 2010 7:15 pm

gibborim wrote:
theckhd wrote:[*]Empyrically: Look over WoL parses for different instances at different times. This would be a pain in the ass, and probably harder than the above version. You'd want to isolate variations, so you'd ideally like 2-3 months worth of parses for a single boss with the same 25 raiders to see how their dps improved from the previous tier (the first week they walked in the instance) to the next tier (when they're coming back on farm status and breezing through it). Good luck getting that sort of consistency though. You'd also want to do it for a few different players from each class to help minimize player variability. I think it could be done, but it would be a massive undertaking and probably give you worse estimates than Rawr would despite taking 10x as long or more.[/list][/list]


This doesn't really work at all. Quite a few classes act differently on farm fights than on progression fights and CD uptimes on things like BL and dps pots change alot. For example, an arcane mage doing Twins progression would be doing a standard 50/50 split on AB/AM and have like 18% BL uptime, but the same mage would just be spamming AB and have 60%+ BL uptime on a real farming of Twins.

not to mention the class changes over time.. meaning the change of rotations etc.
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