Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

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Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby Minarva » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:25 am

Now, before you all spear me instantly on the basis of the thread name, allow me to explain. I consider refreshing sacred shield to be an essential part of being a tankadin, it reduces the damage you take (duh) and is a fairly powerful tool. However, many of you of course say that a holy paladin should be refreshing this for us (as it is more powerful thanks to a higher level of spellpower), but this does not stop us from using it on someone else (e.g the offtank or a squishy raid member) and I feel sacred shield should always be up, when you take into consideration the high levels of raid damage in ICC. With this in mind, going from this perspective, not only does DG provide a stronger sacred shield, but increases its duration and this is where we can say it has a threat value. By increasing its duration, it will free up a GCD once every minute that you otherwise would not have had.

Now I have an inclination that this ability will always be the same one, but this is probably untrue. Thus by using simple averages instead of the abilities threat value, I calculate it to be roughly 1.5/60 (give or take for lag), so around a 2.5% TPS increase. For an average paladin doing 9000 TPS or so this works out as around a 225 TPS increase, or a 112.5 TPS increase per talent. If this is true, this brings it ahead of reckoning (ironically) and should have a place in used high threat builds as well as general builds (assuming even in a high threat build you bother to cast Sacred Shield, it probably defeats the object if you do but..). In all likelihood this probably will not apply to many as I doubt many actually use sacred shield in their tank rotations, but I can't help but feel it is a responsible thing to do. Feel free to point out any obvious mistakes in this too, and perhaps we can start seeing DG in not only its amazing 20% light but also as some form of threat? I point this out as I don't think it has been considered before at least.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby kanst » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:25 am

I would be curious to know how many paladins put their sacred shield out while tanking? Personally I never do, we raid with 2-3 holy pallies and 1-2 ret pallies, if we really needed a sacred shield on someone one of them would be responsible.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby tlitp » Sun Feb 21, 2010 9:06 am

Minarva wrote:(...), it will free up a GCD once every minute that you otherwise would not have had. (I)

Now I have an inclination that this ability will always be the same one, but this is probably untrue. Thus by using simple averages instead of the abilities threat value (II)

(...), I calculate it to be roughly 1.5/60 (give or take for lag), so around a 2.5% TPS increase. (III)

Hard to justify the (universal) usage of SS on cooldown, as a tank. Hard to imagine that SS will have higher priority than every single ability in the paladin's arsenal. Hard to believe that all threat sources are GCD-limited.

That much said, DG does have some interactions with the threat output - they aren't as dramatic as they may seem to be.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby repent » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:17 am

I appreciate the effort of the OP in giving us something to consider from a tanking perspective.

There exists a completely independent reason to maintain the improved version in your arsenal. (Keep in mind, it takes away from reckoning, which can be a total monster in some fights, ie. when solo tanking 4 adds, I drop DG/DS and pick up reckoning because its stupidly OP for that fight.) For lich king, I felt like I had to have the extra tank cooldown, and for ICC in general, the ability to give yourself a short term 20% reduction is too good to pass up.

For most raid paladin tanks, you are going to be running with more than 2 pallies, and virtually all holy pallys run with this talent. Where your threat calculation goes wonky is that it suggests we have to cast it on the raid every minute, to combat the "high levels of raid damage in ICC". We don't have to cast it every minute. We can skip it altogether and let a holy pally keep it up on the tanks.

There is a division of labor in a raid. To put it simply, healers heal and dpser dps. A simple way of saying what a tanks job is, is to say that a tank holds agro and reduces/mitigates/avoids incoming damage (basically stays alive). What you seem to suggest is that we should broaden this definition of reducing/avoiding/mitigating incoming damage to include raid damage on non-tanks. I don't agree with that position for a number of reasons.

There are different types of raid damage that come into play during any given fight. How much actual non-tank raid damage is actually mitigated by SS really is the question you have to ask yourself. If something is proccing SS on a non-tank, your probably not doing your job. If the nature of the encounter is that it would proc on its own, then what you are doing is effectively acting as a healer for the fight, and not as a tank (or a person not contributing dps as efficiently as they can).

For those who don't run with a holy pally, or if the holy pally lets it drop, its a great thing to keep up on yourself, or if you are off tanking, on your fellow tank. There are times, for example, where it will drop off (the holy pally will be dced or out of commission as a mechanic of the fight) For dreamwalker, for example, where a pally is spamming holy light or otherwise occupied, I may keep it up on myself if I know I'm going to get hit hard. Other than those "rare" situations, using this ability on others is just a waste. There are classes that can accomplish the same thing better, that will just be contributing to overheal otherwise.

Don't get me wrong, there is a monster of a reason to maintain the spec, a c/d which we can make great use of. The TPS value of the extended version of the spell (vs. the short one) is just not a significant one against the other considerations. The better question from your thread should/could be when do we efficiently use this ability. (ie are we under-utilizing this portion of the talent, and I think many of us may be)
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby Xanthir » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:26 am

I tend to agree that it is not really the tanks responsibility to keep SS on others in raid at all times. That being said if I either have a huge threat lead (which is the case in quite a few situations) I will juggle SS into my rotation instead of judgment (as long as I can keep up judgments of the just). I also also keep up SS of there is a fight where tanks are taunting back and forth and I am not tanking at that point in time (for instance saurfang when I get the rune of blood, after I get the boss taunted off I will generally throw a SS up on a target, and if the other tank is taking a ton of damage for whatever reason I will throw up a hand of sacrifice).

On a side note I also have a particular arcane mage in my raid generally that I try to keep my SS on if there is a fight where he will gains tons of SP from encanters absorption to increase his damage. (Like Twin Valk back in ToC). I have found that this can actually be a pretty huge raid dps increase because he can get a huge amount of extra SP.

So I guess in the end it depends. In general I will count on my holly pally compadre's to keep SS on me and/or the other tanks. However if the situation calls for it I will get my SS going as long as I can maintain my primarily tanking responsibilities.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:31 am

Xanthir wrote:On a side note I also have a particular arcane mage in my raid generally that I try to keep my SS on if there is a fight where he will gains tons of SP from encanters absorption to increase his damage. (Like Twin Valk back in ToC). I have found that this can actually be a pretty huge raid dps increase because he can get a huge amount of extra SP.

Yeah, it's a nice trick atm, but next patch they're nerfing Incanter's Absorption to only work from Mage absorb spells.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby Xanthir » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:16 pm

Yeah I know, I know Phoenixz (the mage I was talking about) was pretty disappointed about that change.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby Dasphunk » Mon Feb 22, 2010 12:55 pm

kanst wrote:I would be curious to know how many paladins put their sacred shield out while tanking? Personally I never do, we raid with 2-3 holy pallies and 1-2 ret pallies, if we really needed a sacred shield on someone one of them would be responsible.


I always keep up sacred shield up on myself during the raid. Unfortunately, our guild only runs with one holy pally and one ret pally.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby Pewsy » Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:25 am

IMHO, the reason why DG has a SS duration increase component is to lure Holy Paladins a little more to take it, since they should be the ones using SS. Maybe I am doing all wrong, but SS never made it out of my spellbook.

The reason why I have DS/DG is the raid damage mitigation, not the SS duration. Even though this is a small improvement to a (very) marginal spell for a tankadin, I wouldn't gimp my rotation for SS..
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:47 am

I could have sworn we had this conversation before at some point. I distinctly remember Honors (or maybe it was Dorvan?) doing exactly the same calculation (though subbing HotR out since it was the weakest link at that point). But a few quick forum searches failed to turn it up.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby Maelsstrom » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:02 pm

Neither of the 10 man and 25 man groups I MT for have a holy paladin. 500 damage reduction off essentially every hit in exchange for one GCD per minute (generally skipping a judgement) is a trade I happily make. Threat is almost never a concern and when it is, one more judgement would not make a difference. Our job is to minimize healing load once basic survivability and threat are covered.
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby Belloc » Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:39 am

Was the sacred shield change (can only proc once during its duration) reverted before 3.3 hit live?
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Re: Calculating the threat value of Divine Guardian

Postby Khayne » Fri Feb 26, 2010 2:54 pm

Do remember that 1,5/60 new free gcd's doesn't account for 1,5/60 more threat as you also do auto-attack+auto attack seal procs as threat outside of gcd threat.

On the other hand ofc, quite a few fights involve taunts in ICC and you dont possibly tank for 10+ seconds (all 4 first bosses, festergut, blood princes, dreamwalker, sindragosa and professor P3 attleast even if you're the main tank in all), so skipping a holy shield is 0 dps&tps loss in those moments.

Only fights where you dont got free phase or part to skip on holy shield that i can think of right now are rotface MT, possibly professor P1 and 2, blood queen MT. Depending on fight you might need to substitute some ability if you only got 30 second SS though so in those the threat advantage does happen ofc, but that again depends on fight.
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