Armor vs HP Math Help

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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Steve » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:19 pm

Well, the nature of incoming damage has changed significantly in ICC (on most normal mode bosses) relative to the previous raid tiers. The incoming damage on tanks has increased, but the burst damage has decreased which probably means the nature of how tanks die (at least on normal mode bosses) has changed.

Consider two hypothetical bosses. Smash is a 2.0 second swing speed boss that does 25K damage per hit and Stab is a 1.0 second swing speed boss that does 15K damage per hit.

Smash does 12.5K DPS, but can do as much as 50K damage in 2 seconds.
Stab does 15K DPS, but only does 45K damage in a 2 seconds.

Thus while Stab is doing more DPS to the tank, Stab's burst is actually lower. And since Stab attacks more often, the tank will spend more time over the course of the encounter at less than 100% health. This increases the power of healing since the window within which a tank can receive an effective heal (not an overheal) increases.

The result is tanks spend less time at 100% health and have more time to receive heals (and thus get more healing in the time it takes to go from 100% to dead). This isn't simply a product of well-geared tanks vs. less well-geared tanks. It's a function of the nature of the incoming damage in ICC. And in this kind of damage intake scenario, mitigation takes on greater value than it probably had before.

Armor is great for tanks of any gear level on the first 10 boss encounters in this instance. (Which isn't to say it was bad before. Just that relative to before, it's better now.)
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:22 pm

xstratax wrote:So all this talk of "EH is a poor formula, and should add heals and shields and rainbows and unicorns..." is great for you overgeared Tanks in 25 man ICC who are far into progression, but what about the average person out there. I am in a 10 man focused Raid guild, we just formed up, so were only up to Putricide. As well due to people's work schedules, theres no way to guarantee that a specific buff/debuff/healing output everytime. My account was down from Nov to Jan, which has obviously hurt my EoF collection, and thus my current gearing.

With all that, it IS common for one of my healers to die, and it IS common for me to occasionally have heals that dont land for 3 seconds or more, for whatever reason (deaths, movement, D/Cs, phases of the moon). What does this mean for JoeSchmoPaladin who may or may not need those twin Stam Trinkets to ensure that, that window of time is survivable. To me it seems like Armor is great, but its not doing me any favors reducing hits if I die to them anyway. For the record I plan on getting as much Bonus Armor Gear as I can, but am just not sold on Armor Trinkets for my current situation...yet.

I apologize if this is snide, its not intended to be, but it feels like the Titans are busy wrestling, and have forgotten that things arent as golden as they are on Mt Olympus.


If one of your healers is dying then the solution is not to be found in your gearing strategy, it's in the healer not dying. You shouldn't be trying to gear yourself to cover for the mistakes of others.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Phonic » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:11 pm

Great discussion. Read all 25 pages :p

I currently stack double stam trinkets with all the armor bonus pieces I can get (cloak next). My warrior partner tank goes full armor. I feel he dies more often than me, but overall when we talk, I feel we're on the same page of getting more stam AND more armor :D

Can't go wrong there... haha
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Phonic » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:48 pm

Actually, after processing this thread a little bit more, I have a great example of where double stam trinkets may definitely help over armor. If you MT Lich King, the Soul Reaper debuff (shadow magic) followed by a closely timed melee swing (physical) is usually almost guaranteed to proc AD (or kill you if it already procced AD). This is obviously not meant to happen with perfect Taunt switches, but that's ideal world. In our experience with LK-10, the OT often is out stunning the Valkyr, dropping off defile, taunt miss/glitch, etc. right when you get hit with the Reaper.

Sorry, we don't parse 10-mans, but there were some situations where I did survive a SR following by a melee swing, and in those times, the extra 4K I had from stam trinkets gave the buffer that armor might not have.

So again, situational and based on luck, healers, OT taunting, etc. But a good example of magical damage that isn't mitaged by armor.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby xstratax » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:39 am

Sabindeus wrote:If one of your healers is dying then the solution is not to be found in your gearing strategy, it's in the healer not dying. You shouldn't be trying to gear yourself to cover for the mistakes of others.
Isnt that the point of all this discussion, gearing so that If something does go wrong we can survive. IMO thats like saying that its a waste to Bubble if a Healer goes down since covering mistakes isnt our job. None the less, I still would like to know if the lack of extra heals in 10 would change opinions? In the past I have found that even the loss of one person in a 10 man is much more a detriment than 25.

Again not trying to ruffle feathers, but I am trying to make sure I understand fully what is going on, and am able to apply it to my own situation.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Anorian » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:42 am

xstratax wrote:Isnt that the point of all this discussion, gearing so that If something does go wrong we can survive. IMO thats like saying that its a waste to Bubble if a Healer goes down since covering mistakes isnt our job. None the less, I still would like to know if the lack of extra heals in 10 would change opinions? In the past I have found that even the loss of one person in a 10 man is much more a detriment than 25.

Again not trying to ruffle feathers, but I am trying to make sure I understand fully what is going on, and am able to apply it to my own situation.


Imo no, we gear ourselves to stay alive long enough for healers to get us back up after a big spike. However if healers die there is no way in hell we have any chance to survive whatsoever, whether you stack armor or stamina. Your best bet might be avoidance and hope you have a very lucky streak if the boss is on low hp.

There is a limit to how much we can add to the staying alive part of our job. This thread is based on surviving the worst case scenario's, the big bursts of dmg, granted the fact our healers are still alive and we can continue the fight after burst like we did before the burst.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Maelsstrom » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:26 pm

Healer dieing, no, but often healers get occupied. They get frozen, webbed, stunned, cursed, have to run out of the fire or what-have-you. They are back to doing their job 3 or 4 seconds later. You need to live for those 3 or 4 seconds.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby xstratax » Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:57 am

Yes, perhaps I should have said that Healers are often unable to heal for what ever reason, either way its effectively the same, you dont get healed during that window of time.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Roots » Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:56 am

Phonic wrote:Actually, after processing this thread a little bit more, I have a great example of where double stam trinkets may definitely help over armor. If you MT Lich King, the Soul Reaper debuff (shadow magic) followed by a closely timed melee swing (physical) is usually almost guaranteed to proc AD (or kill you if it already procced AD). This is obviously not meant to happen with perfect Taunt switches, but that's ideal world. In our experience with LK-10, the OT often is out stunning the Valkyr, dropping off defile, taunt miss/glitch, etc. right when you get hit with the Reaper.

Sorry, we don't parse 10-mans, but there were some situations where I did survive a SR following by a melee swing, and in those times, the extra 4K I had from stam trinkets gave the buffer that armor might not have.

So again, situational and based on luck, healers, OT taunting, etc. But a good example of magical damage that isn't mitaged by armor.


Just get a bear with the 4pc bonus to barkskin/enrage through the whole hit. Much easier to deal with.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby fuzzygeek » Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:48 pm

Roots wrote:Just get a bear with the 4pc bonus to barkskin/enrage through the whole hit. Much easier to deal with.


I don't like throwing quick tank transitions at healers (I was one for two years, so I sympathize with their plight as the only way Blizz can think of to make encounters harder is to shit on healers' faces), so in general we tend to not tank swap as much unless it's absolutely required (e.g., Putricide).

Any of the tank classes can CD rotate through Soul Reaper; some will just require more externals than others. Reminds me of Vezax.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Awyndel » Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:33 pm

I agree, tank switches can be hard on the healers, and as well on the tanks with all the stuff going on in that fight.

As a paladin you can solo it just fine, you use shield wall, hand of salvation, DG ( without DS! ) , juggernaut+skeleton key ( time the key on the last second ) . for those without juggernaut or without luck there is always AD proc. Try to keep shield wall for the reaper where 1 or more tank healers are grabbed by valkyrs. On this fight I'd actually recommend not using the str libram, coz the dodge can help preventing a melee coinciding with the shadow damage. Remember there is always nightmare seeds for those unlucky with trinkets, it's not a lot but it helps.

At least this works for normal mode.

Shizzle this belongs in another section :P .
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Khayne » Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:28 pm

If you want to make a case of "1 of healers died", you could then also have to consider fact that the sole healer you got left can only pump X amount of hps, so the armor might drop your DTPS (damage taken per sec) to below that X (like someone just mention that in this freak scenario avoidance might be best as it reduces overall dtps).
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby MudNova » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:00 am

hello, i just wanted to say that armor could probably be better right now in EH terms because:
for example..
Right now I have a supposed reduction of 72% damage.
If a boss is hitting me for 20k melee swings, it is supposed that the boss has to hit about 70k so the final swing hits 20k...
Now the deal with HP is that if the boss hits me twice, i'm just gonna take the damage, but with armor, if the boss hits me twice, it will probably take a lesser percentage of my HP BAR.. I suck at explaining this kind of things, I hope someone can understand the #%!@ stuff I say hehe..
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby cds4850 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:26 am

MudNova wrote:hello, i just wanted to say that armor could probably be better right now in EH terms because:
for example..
Right now I have a supposed reduction of 72% damage.
If a boss is hitting me for 20k melee swings, it is supposed that the boss has to hit about 70k so the final swing hits 20k...
Now the deal with HP is that if the boss hits me twice, i'm just gonna take the damage, but with armor, if the boss hits me twice, it will probably take a lesser percentage of my HP BAR.. I suck at explaining this kind of things, I hope someone can understand the #%!@ stuff I say hehe..

First post for you, and an attempt to resurrect a heated thread... 5 dorra say troll post.

On a side note, if you really want to know this community's position on the relative contributions of stamina and armor towards survivability, read through the twenty-some pages of this thread for starters.
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