How to make Gold as a tank?

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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Kelaan » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:36 pm

True, they'll be Spiffy. However, will it be 15k gold-spiffy? Leveling greens and blues, if my recent DK leveling experience is indicative, should be Fine. Heck, I bet my 4x T9 ought to be fine, too.

If I assume an income of ~11 frost/week on my DK, that means that in 11 weeks I can get 2x T10. So, basically, if I start saving my T10 when Cataclysm hits beta (?) I should still be able to get 2x... so it's probably safe to sell a couple primordial saronite.

If I sell ~70 badges worth (3x Saronite) that would net me ~6k - 7k gold, which would let me get new 22 slot bags on both toons. Hm.

So basically what I claimed was that it's not really reasonable to spend emblems for leveling/early Cata raiding as you'll likely get comparable stuff from quests. Also it'll take months for the patch to arrive and you can easily farm 2+ full sets of T10 gear before that. Just use the emblems for gearing your main and you'll be fine.

I think your "2+ sets" is an overexaggeration, but I agree that delaying evaluation of that is likely good. My paladin's dps gear will be T9, and I expect that will be Just Fine, so I have no reason to think otherwise for my DK.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:24 am

hoho wrote:The way I got myself crafted pants in a month after ICC release:

you need: alts. Preferrably lots of them and some with decent crafting professions. For you mining/alchemy would be the best.

What to do:
Run dailys/voa/weekly/pug ICC with as many of them as possible
Craft titansteel with them on cooldown
Get a saronite every week/couple of weeks with each one from emblems


You only need one character with Smelt: Titansteel in order to get the 8 necessary to craft the boots.

Each character at 80 (assuming you don't do the weekly raid, but no ICC or VoA) earns Frost Emblems at a rate of approximately 2.7/day. Each alt will accrue enough Frost Emblems for 1 Primordial Saronite approximately every 9 days. That means with 5 alts, you could accrue enough Primordial Saronite for the boots in 9 days. You would have had the opportunity to perform 9 Titansteel smelts though you only need 8. I have enough Frost Emblems (69 exactly) on my mage alt to buy 3 Primordial Saronite. I don't have the Boots yet and I'm trying to decide how much I need the boots. My goal was always to get at least 3 Primordial Saronite for my boots before I bought them in order to subsidize the gold cost to myself. Now I'm debating whether I want to wait for the 4th, since my mage does get into ICC10s first wing making it less than a week to get a single Primordial Saronite. Hell, I may even wait till I get enough for 5.

hoho wrote:Playing the AH has always worked and will always work. Only thing that can happen if you are trying to earn gold on stuff that isn't optimal. Unfortunately the optimal thing can and will depend on server/time of day week week and unlimited amounts of other factors so there isn't a single solid strategy to do this. That's also probably the reason why I completely fail at using AH to earn gold :P


You have to know when the major raid times on your server are. Consequently, that tells you when to buy and when to sell. If you need consumables/gems/enchants off the AH, you want to buy them away from raid nights. Prices are typically cheaper. If you sell consumables/gems/enchants, you want to sell consumables before major raid times and sell enchants/gems after major raid times. Why does this work? Most people don't think about consumables except just before they raid. Highest demand means highest possible price. Likewise, gems/enchants sell well after major raid times since the raiders just got done and got their shiny new epics that they need to gem/enchant.

--

One way I've been making money of late is finding people in trade chat selling battered hilts for 5k, buying them, then reposting them on the AH for 15k. I don't care if I lose the 750g for posting. I still make a very good profit off it. Of course, methods like that require you to have ample supply of gold in order to be able to purchase the goods in question.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby hoho » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:36 am

Kelaan wrote:I think your "2+ sets" is an overexaggeration
Depends on who you ask. I had a guy in another forum claim in about 1-2 months tradepugs made up from non-raiding casuals will be killing Arthas25 wearing full 264 emblem/crafted gear :P

Though 11 emblems per week sound a bit too few. Surely you can do the easier weekly raid quests and voa pugs too?
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:48 am

hoho wrote:
Kelaan wrote:I think your "2+ sets" is an overexaggeration
Depends on who you ask. I had a guy in another forum claim in about 1-2 months tradepugs made up from non-raiding casuals will be killing Arthas25 wearing full 264 emblem/crafted gear :P

Though 11 emblems per week sound a bit too few. Surely you can do the easier weekly raid quests and voa pugs too?


Non-raiding causes will be unable to kill Arthas25 with full crafted/emblem gear until Cataclysm, unless a new tier of farmable/crafted gear comes out in WotLK. The only way this will occur is if a significant portion of the 25 man raid is formed by a core of good players, and the raids kicks out any bad/underperforming players on the way to Arthas and replaces them with better. It is the latter part which I doubt will occur, since too many people try to be nice. Consequently, without performing the latter, those PuGs will fail before even reaching Arthas.

You get 14/week just from doing a daily heroic random..... If you can do weekly heroic every day, plus the weekly raid, and any two bosses that drop Frost Emblems, you can earn enough Frost Emblems for one Primordial Saronite every week.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Brute » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:59 am

I've found that the ability to make gold with professions is really enhanced by having every profession. I.e., you could make money on your herbalist by selling herbs... or you could take herbs you farm and turn them into consumables (flasks/pots), or combine them with your enchanter and inscriptioner to make enchant scrolls.

Basically, the more phases you are able to put raw gathered materials through, the more money you will make, especially if any of those abilities are cooldown abilities. (You should be using any cooldowns in proffessions daily, as there is ALWAYS a markup on those.) People charge for the stuff they sell for the time they put into it, and thus the more work you put into creating the items, the more wealth you will generate.

Also, the highest markup is always on things that people don't need to make to level. There often isn't a lot of markup (if any) to do something if you got a skillpoint on it.

Further, the fewer people that can do a certian thing, the more they will be able to charge for that thing. I have been able to take advantage of this with the TOC patterns, despite not having any myself. 50g sound like a reasonable combine tip for Saronite Swordbreakers? I haven't gotten any complaints. But even with that tip, I still clear about 800g when I turn around and sell those bracers on the AH, after buying all the mats myself. I think people just aren't willing to put in the money to get this stuff crafted, but if you are, a lot of times you can make a killing by just buying a few things and typing "/2 LF TOC Blacksmith have mats will tip". I haven't actually done it, but if you were willing to buy mats for 1 of every decent TOC pattern, you could move a lot of inventory. Do it that way so you don't have 10 Breastplates of the White Knight in your inventory, which would take an insanely long time to move since you're competing with other people selling them and yourself. The only downside would be having to find at least three different crafters.

there, i've said too much.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:21 am

Brute wrote:I've found that the ability to make gold with professions is really enhanced by having every profession. I.e., you could make money on your herbalist by selling herbs... or you could take herbs you farm


Woh, stop right there. First of all, that is very, very close to the "I farmed it for free" mentality which just isn't correct. There is no free, in this case you spend time farming those materials so that you don't have to pay gold to acquire them. It's a classic example of opportunity cost. In this case you're devoting time to farming that could have been used to earn gold in other fashions or even other time-involved tasks. Everything must be paid for, whether with gold or time. You either pay 100g for your herbs, or your farm them and spend x time farming. If it took an hour to farm the herbs then your farming earned you 100g/hr. If you turned all those herbs into consumables that sell for a total of 250g, and it takes you 15m to do that, then the alchemical portion nets you 150g. All told, you spent 1hr 15m for an increase of 250g making your profitability 200g/hr. If you just bought the materials for 100g and crafted and sold them, you made 150g for 15m of effort for a profitability of 600g/hr.

People make a common and huge mistake of assuming that the raw value of gold you have is the indicator of how well your money making endeavors are performing. It's not, it's meaningless without tempering the value with the amount of time it took to perform it. This is why my reselling of battered hilts is exceedingly profitable. It takes me all of 5 minutes to buy from a trade chat seller for 5k, then send it to an alt to resell on the auction house for 15k. After the 750g cut from the AH, I still turned a profit of 9,750g making the profitability of that venture 117,00g/hr.

TL;DR - Farming your own mats is less efficient at making money since you must now devote the time to farm those materials. Realize that the point of farming, in order to refine those materials further, is to subsidize the gold cost of crafting with more time on your part.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Zobel » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:17 am

Talderas wrote:
Brute wrote:I've found that the ability to make gold with professions is really enhanced by having every profession. I.e., you could make money on your herbalist by selling herbs... or you could take herbs you farm


Woh, stop right there. First of all, that is very, very close to the "I farmed it for free" mentality which just isn't correct.

No, it isn't. He's just saying that the more professions you have, the more vertical integration you have, and the more profit you can capture by not paying for a bunch of little markups along the way.

He's not advocating turning raw mats into craftables at a loss. He's saying you can make more money as an enchanter by not having to buy someone else's vellums. Instead of paying cost+profit% to someone else for vellums, you can craft them yourself at cost.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby halabar » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:31 am

1) Understand the market on your server.

2) Max your professions on your tank, or an alt, and find something that works for you.

For me, it's mining/engineering on my hunter alt. I've been selling Shattered Rounds by the bucketful, and titanium ore is selling well too. Basically everything from just gathering mining/engineering can be sold, and it's doing quite well right now.

But your server will be different. You have to learn the market.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Talderas » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:39 am

Zobel wrote:No, it isn't. He's just saying that the more professions you have, the more vertical integration you have, and the more profit you can capture by not paying for a bunch of little markups along the way.

He's not advocating turning raw mats into craftables at a loss. He's saying you can make more money as an enchanter by not having to buy someone else's vellums. Instead of paying cost+profit% to someone else for vellums, you can craft them yourself at cost.


Raw gold, yes. But vertical integration doesn't necessarily make you more profitable. Each step of the process you have to devote time to performing, which reduces the effective wages you are earning. It's far more profitable to pay someone else to spend the time/effort for you. Time is finite. Vertical integration just means that you value your time less than someone who doesn't. That's why the proper metric is gold per hour. So what if you can make 2,000 gold a week from herbalism/alchemy for 20 hours of work. I will still take a profit of 500 gold a week for two hours of work every time. Now if I can find 4 more activities just like that, I still only spend 8 hours and earn the same 2,000 gold a week that you earned for 20 hours of work due to vertical integration, and I would still have 12 more hours of time that you don't. The entire point of vertical integration is to avoid the hold-up problem where you don't run into issues negotiating materials by be able to produce all the materials yourself. It is almost always most efficient (and profitable) for a separate supplier and manufacturer to cooperate. That's why the most profitable flask makers and scribes contract someone to farm the herbs for them.

I believe a common phrase thrown about that people forget about "Work smart, not hard." When you focus on the end goal, you can easily lose track of the method used to get there, which may be the most inefficient.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Zobel » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:19 am

Talderas wrote:
Zobel wrote:No, it isn't. He's just saying that the more professions you have, the more vertical integration you have, and the more profit you can capture by not paying for a bunch of little markups along the way.

He's not advocating turning raw mats into craftables at a loss. He's saying you can make more money as an enchanter by not having to buy someone else's vellums. Instead of paying cost+profit% to someone else for vellums, you can craft them yourself at cost.


Raw gold, yes. But vertical integration doesn't necessarily make you more profitable. Each step of the process you have to devote time to performing, which reduces the effective wages you are earning. It's far more profitable to pay someone else to spend the time/effort for you. Time is finite. Vertical integration just means that you value your time less than someone who doesn't. That's why the proper metric is gold per hour. So what if you can make 2,000 gold a week from herbalism/alchemy for 20 hours of work. I will still take a profit of 500 gold a week for two hours of work every time. Now if I can find 4 more activities just like that, I still only spend 8 hours and earn the same 2,000 gold a week that you earned for 20 hours of work due to vertical integration, and I would still have 12 more hours of time that you don't. The entire point of vertical integration is to avoid the hold-up problem where you don't run into issues negotiating materials by be able to produce all the materials yourself. It is almost always most efficient (and profitable) for a separate supplier and manufacturer to cooperate. That's why the most profitable flask makers and scribes contract someone to farm the herbs for them.

I believe a common phrase thrown about that people forget about "Work smart, not hard." When you focus on the end goal, you can easily lose track of the method used to get there, which may be the most inefficient.
Now you're just spinning yourself in circles. I'd suggest picking one strawman at a time.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby halabar » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:24 am

Talderas wrote:
Raw gold, yes. But vertical integration doesn't necessarily make you more profitable.... It is almost always most efficient (and profitable) for a separate supplier and manufacturer to cooperate. That's why the most profitable flask makers and scribes contract someone to farm the herbs for them.
.


True for those two specific professions, and probably for JC as well, but not necessarily for all. It certainly true for low-markup high-volume selling, but it also depends on how much you are selling.

For my own example with my miner/engineer hunter (and pally JC/BS) I could craft or sell every shred of what I pick up in Icecrown/Sholozar. I was putting about 30-50 stacks of Shattered Rounds up every other day or so, all crafted from what I farmed. However, this weekend, the other sellers disappeared, so I was able to jack my prices and at the same time post about 200 stacks, attempting to take over the market, so I started having to buy some eternal earths. Assuming that the other sellers don't come back, I'll do this as standard, and it fits with your model. But if the other sellers come back, I can just post from the side-product of my titanium farming.

But for lower-volume higher-markup, vertical integration can really help you out. If you are selling one Pillars of Might each week, then your profit is better if you are farming the mats, assuming you have the time to do so.

I don't even bother with JC, as there are at least 3 spammers who buy up everyone's gems from badges, and then turn them around as cut on the AH.... playing that game can be tiresome, I'd rather just mine.. :-)
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby halabar » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:35 am

Zobel wrote:
Talderas wrote:
Zobel wrote:No, it isn't. He's just saying that the more professions you have, the more vertical integration you have, and the more profit you can capture by not paying for a bunch of little markups along the way.

I believe a common phrase thrown about that people forget about "Work smart, not hard." When you focus on the end goal, you can easily lose track of the method used to get there, which may be the most inefficient.
Now you're just spinning yourself in circles. I'd suggest picking one strawman at a time.


The problem here is there are too many variables. You can't make a blanket statement. How productive is the farming? What's the markup/volume?
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Platino » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:43 am

That's what it comes down to. If it is more beneficial from a gold per hour standpoint to purchase the materials, do that. If it is more beneficial to farm the mats, do that.

In a fluid economy, there is no definitive choice between the two. If you really want to make money, you have to be aware of the market.
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Thornir » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:16 am

Is there any decent way of making money with only one character? I have a Miner/BS, the next closest to 80 is a 78, that's been 78 for at least a month, and even then, its a Tailor/Enchanter. I'm terrible at leveling. I have the one 80; not a gabazillion alts like everyone else. I doubt I have enough money to powerlevel another profession.

What I'm saying is, Is making money from dailies/randoms/BoEs enough to break my all time high of 2.1k? :?
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Re: How to make Gold as a tank?

Postby Platino » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:19 am

Honestly, levelling alts itself makes good money. If you concentrate on just pushing through and knocking out quests-NOT grinding professions or anything-you can make in the neighborhood of 3 to 4K on the road from 70 to 80. At least, that has been my average.
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