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Armor vs HP Math Help

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Arcand » Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:15 am

Overwhelming wrote:TL:DR

I read the first six pages of bickering....so can someone point me in the direction of maybe a BIS for 10 and 25 ICC or maybe armor->stam conversion?


Best-in-slot gear is going to depend on the fight, and a little bit on the gear, classes and individual styles of your healers. Which is probably not what you wanted to hear. :)
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Rhiannon » Sun Feb 07, 2010 7:03 pm

Question - early on in the thread the idea that tank deaths where some significant amount of healing did occur between 100% and 0% were more common than we typically gave credit was raised, the example log iirc being something like 3 ~25k hits interspersed with ~20k worth of heals. The value of armor compared to stamina goes up as we increase the amount of healing in the scenario, but I'm curious whether Divinity has been undervalued due to the same mentality that tank deaths occur in a healing vacuum usually. Is Divinity worth another look, or is 5% more healing taken for 5 talent points spent too anemic to ever warrant serious thought?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Arjuna » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:39 pm

Rhiannon wrote:Question - early on in the thread the idea that tank deaths where some significant amount of healing did occur between 100% and 0% were more common than we typically gave credit was raised, the example log iirc being something like 3 ~25k hits interspersed with ~20k worth of heals. The value of armor compared to stamina goes up as we increase the amount of healing in the scenario, but I'm curious whether Divinity has been undervalued due to the same mentality that tank deaths occur in a healing vacuum usually. Is Divinity worth another look, or is 5% more healing taken for 5 talent points spent too anemic to ever warrant serious thought?

21k healing in a 25k damage death scenario still isn't enough though...divinity would only be helpful if the healing received is 0-5% less than the damage taken in a death scenario. In all other cases it's useless...
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:15 am

That's like saying another 0.5% damage reduction from having more armor isn't enough so we shouldn't bother going for more armor, or 300 more hp wouldn't save you so we shouldn't go for that piece with extra stamina. The point isn't the specifics of one particular scenario but rather the general principle in play. I could easily contrive new numbers to satisfy you:

60k hp
-25k swing (35k)
+8k prayer of mending (43k)
+6k from two different hot ticks (49k)
-23k swing (26k)
+16k holy light (42k)
-26k swing (16k)
-17k (physical) special (-1k)
---
+16k hl that never hit
+11k nourish that never hit

If this tank had had a small amount more damage reduction, or a small amount more health, or the heals that hit it had been slightly bigger, it would have had enough health to survive to the next two heals landing. As has been established already, in this type of situation armor is a lot stronger than stamina, in terms of item budget (if the conversion is of the order of ~10-12:1 for armor:stamina in a healing vacuum, it must head more in the favour of armor in one of these several second significant healing death scenarios), but I'm wondering if Divinity has more worth than its previously been given credit for, due to its impact in this scenario.
Last edited by Rhiannon on Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Iselian » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:39 am

Funny sidenote, we had lackluster interrupts on Deathwhisper this week (Recount > All?) and our tank at the time died to a 40 overkill.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Awyndel » Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:00 am

I don't think the scenario's where you receive such high amounts of healing before being topped off again are as common as you think. However I must admit that that's a guess. We should examine logs more to see wich is more common on wich fights.

Of course this makes divinity somewhat stronger. I don't know if I would sacrifice crusade's dps for it though.

Last word on the other hand seems an interesting place to pick this up, it being the highest dps weapon anyway:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... ic#p539331

This is ofc, if you are at all concerned with tps or dps.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Gavinas » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:18 am

Napkin math, For every 10k healing you recieve during the burst window divinity is worth ~10k*0.05 = 500 health, or 100 health per point. Lets be generous and say you get 60k healing, that's 3000 extra health from divinity or ~300 stam, about 60 per talent point. In general it's 10 stam per point per 10k healing received in the relevant time period.

As a point of comparison Sacred Duty in its current form is about 70 stam per point for a tank with 3500 stam. I'd say divinity is still a pretty weak talent since I doubt death scenarios where you receive a full health bars worth of heals are very common.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Mon Feb 08, 2010 7:51 am

To factor divinity in, you'd modify the equations like this:

EH = (H+1.05*h)(1+A/K)
dH = (H+1.05*h)/(A+K)*dA

There are a few things to note here:
- Like armor, Divinity gets stronger as you get more heals (h)
- Unlike armor, Divinity has no inherent worth when h is very small or 0
- It will undoubtedly be a survivability increase for the whittle-down scenario

That said, it's a hefty investment for a small gain. Using H=50k, A=35k, h=30k (a reasonably large value), you get a 1.76% increase in this modified EH metric. Compare that to Toughness, which gives you a 6.16% increase for the same talent point investment (and does so with Armor, which means it's a 6% increase regardless of the amount of healing).

Realistically, you wouldn't be trading Toughness for Divinity though. You'd be trading either threat or utility. If you're dropping ret talents to pick up Divinity, you'd have to sacrifice Crusade at 200 TPS per point, as well as either Vindication or Pursuit of Justice.

You could pick up the first three points with your discretionary points by skipping DS/DG (utility) or Reckoning (threat). Redoubt would be the next lowest threat talent in Prot, but it's not clear that's a good trade since it's also a survivability talent.

You might ask "How difficult would it be to make up that 200 TPS per point from Crusade?" At 200 TPS per point, that's equivalent to 66.7 STR or 100 STA worth of itemization. So dropping three points in Crusade would cost around 300 STA worth of itemization on gear to make up the threat differential, or ten gems worth. That works out to be a worse trade yet (trading around 3% EH per point here for 0.33% per point from Divinity). You may be able to do better than this by sacrificing avoidance (i.e. swapping in a STR/hit heavy ret piece for a high-avoidance piece).

So I think it comes down to how much you need the threat, really. If you can afford to sacrifice points in Crusade, Divinity will give you a small survivability gain. Alternatively, if you don't value DS/DG as a raid (or self) cooldown, you can pick up three points that way.

I'm not sure there's any way to "math out" which is superior - arguments could be made for Crusade in this department as well (more DPS, fewer 1% wipes, fewer concerns about threat-capping DPS, etc). Trying to directly compare survivability and threat is always a bit subjective.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Arjuna » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:19 am

Rhiannon wrote:That's like saying another 0.5% damage reduction from having more armor isn't enough so we shouldn't bother going for more armor, or 300 more hp wouldn't save you so we shouldn't go for that piece with extra stamina. The point isn't the specifics of one particular scenario but rather the general principle in play. I could easily contrive new numbers to satisfy you:

60k hp
-25k swing (35k)
+8k prayer of mending (43k)
+6k from two different hot ticks (49k)
-23k swing (26k)
+16k holy light (42k)
-26k swing (16k)
-17k (physical) special (-1k)
---
+16k hl that never hit
+11k nourish that never hit

If this tank had had a small amount more damage reduction, or a small amount more health, or the heals that hit it had been slightly bigger, it would have had enough health to survive to the next two heals landing. As has been established already, in this type of situation armor is a lot stronger than stamina, in terms of item budget (if the conversion is of the order of ~10-12:1 for armor:stamina in a healing vacuum, it must head more in the favour of armor in one of these several second significant healing death scenarios), but I'm wondering if Divinity has more worth than its previously been given credit for, due to its impact in this scenario.

Are you meaning to tell me that the tank only receives one direct heal in 3 boss swings time and you'd blame the tank for not picking up divination 5/5?

I know I'd blame someone else...like, my freaking healer(s)!

And don't come draggin' with uncle fester, yes, he has a low swing speed, but at 3 stacks you usually have some sort of cooldown on you and probably more than one healer anyway...

what talents would you skip to get 5/5 divination?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Rhiannon » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:07 am

It's not a question of blaming. During progression when people don't know the fights inside and out, mistakes do happen. People do stand in fire, tank healers do die prematurely. The point isn't that more heals should have been coming in, but how best to survive if a scenario like this is a common case of tank death. Which hasn't been established yet, but is something that this thread has pushed us towards thinking about more. The original EH metric modelled a situation where tank death occurred with no heals landing whatsoever.

Personally I move those three discretionary points between reckoning (anub adds), divine sac (general icecrown spec) and imp hoj (LK), I'm just wondering if putting 3 in divinity instead is completely stupid or not (as has been asserted for months). It looks not to be worth it based on the numbers people have produced, though not completely stupid.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Awyndel » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:53 am

well ofc it will be more helpfull on progression. But I would rather have the 600 tps on all tries, and that small safety on the few tries where it goes horribly wrong. Ofc one could make a progression spec and a farming spec.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Hammerjudge » Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:12 pm

For what it's worth, this epic thread almost deserves to be locked out of respect for its awesomeness, so it can be preserved as one might in a Museum of Tankhood.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Wrathy » Thu Feb 11, 2010 10:12 am

Hammerjudge wrote:For what it's worth, this epic thread almost deserves to be locked out of respect for its awesomeness, so it can be preserved as one might in a Museum of Tankhood.


This epic thread gives me a headache when I take a week off of coming to the forums every day. Catching up on pages of unread material is a daunting and tiring task...
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Digren » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:29 pm

JamesVZ wrote:The whole point is that there's never a cut and dry trade off like 500 armor for 1k hp.

I know it's a bit late, but yes, there is. You can switch a profession from blacksmithing or enchanting to engineering and make almost this exact tradeoff.

I assume based on your posts that you are an engineer, then?

Edit: Oh, wow, ok, I didn't realize there were 15 more pages of this. I'll read it later after I have a chance to make some popcorn.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby xstratax » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:34 am

So all this talk of "EH is a poor formula, and should add heals and shields and rainbows and unicorns..." is great for you overgeared Tanks in 25 man ICC who are far into progression, but what about the average person out there. I am in a 10 man focused Raid guild, we just formed up, so were only up to Putricide. As well due to people's work schedules, theres no way to guarantee that a specific buff/debuff/healing output everytime. My account was down from Nov to Jan, which has obviously hurt my EoF collection, and thus my current gearing.

With all that, it IS common for one of my healers to die, and it IS common for me to occasionally have heals that dont land for 3 seconds or more, for whatever reason (deaths, movement, D/Cs, phases of the moon). What does this mean for JoeSchmoPaladin who may or may not need those twin Stam Trinkets to ensure that, that window of time is survivable. To me it seems like Armor is great, but its not doing me any favors reducing hits if I die to them anyway. For the record I plan on getting as much Bonus Armor Gear as I can, but am just not sold on Armor Trinkets for my current situation...yet.

I apologize if this is snide, its not intended to be, but it feels like the Titans are busy wrestling, and have forgotten that things arent as golden as they are on Mt Olympus.
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