Armor vs HP Math Help

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Kihra » Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:46 am

Yeah, I guess I get that. My death scenarios don't tend to involve crossing the threshold multiple times though. In a typical death scenario, once I'm under the threshold, I stay under it. :)
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Hammerjudge » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:51 pm

I've read the whole thread now. Fascinating. Could have been done in 4 pages with proper etiquette at the beginning, and more clearly-formed arguments. That said, it would not have been such an epic thread if civility had prevailed :P
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby halabar » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:43 pm

Soo... how does the buff to the Key effect it's ranking against the Glyph?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:51 pm

halabar wrote:Soo... how does the buff to the Key effect it's ranking against the Glyph?
The on use of those are almost apples and oranges. The Key works well against a predictable burst or as part of an oh shit button combo. The glyph is probably better spammed when it's available or saved for a predictable sustained increase in damage.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby steadypal » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:26 pm

triumph trinket vs heart of iron
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Heshan » Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:23 pm

Arjuna wrote:
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You beat me to it Arjuna. :D

After following the whole thread it has shown the merits of both armor and stamina and I hope more tanks will come to read the entirety of this thread rather than the comments in the first dozen or so pages. These last few pages have been enlightening serve as an excellent launching point for a more definitive guide on gearing selections given a variety of sources of damage and new challenges coming with hard modes.

That being said, I'm still going to compile an epic stacked stamina set just to LoH on Valithria. :lol:
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Obor » Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:11 am

So what does the hotfixed change to Sacred Duty do to the equivalence between stamina and armour now? We've gone from scaling by 1.08 to 1.04 (effectively a 3.7% reduction in HP from pre-patch) so I'm thinking that in a purely physical fight the relationship would now be:

Code: Select all
1 stamina = 11.7 * 1.04 / 1.08 = 11.3 armour


so armour has become more valuable to Paladins now. Does this sound right?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Shathus » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:10 am

Not that it's a serious fight compared to the upcoming ICC hard modes, but for the sake of discussion (or for the lesser geared tanks out there), what's everyone's opinion on gearing for the new Vault boss? Looking at the logs from our kill, 55-60% of the damage to the tanks was the Frostbite DoT (magic), while only 30-35% was from melee (physical).

For our tanks, the melee seemed to average about 14-16k hits, while the Frostbite damage of course started off lower and ramped up over the course of the fight. This seems like a fight where dual stam would be more beneficial than stam/armor due to the (mostly) constant intake of a 'bleed effect'.

Again, I realize this is a situational thing, just that most of the discussion in this threat has centered around the ICC that are mostly physical, and just thought it would be a change of pace.

Thoughts?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:16 am

Obor wrote:So what does the hotfixed change to Sacred Duty do to the equivalence between stamina and armour now? We've gone from scaling by 1.08 to 1.04 (effectively a 3.7% reduction in HP from pre-patch) so I'm thinking that in a purely physical fight the relationship would now be:

Code: Select all
1 stamina = 11.7 * 1.04 / 1.08 = 11.3 armour


so armour has become more valuable to Paladins now. Does this sound right?

The conclusion is correct. The math is almost correct.

The old formula was:
Code: Select all
dA = 12.59*(K+A)/H * dS

where the 12.59 factor comes from kings, Sacred Duty, and Combat Expertise (1.1*1.08*1.06=1.259) and the fact that we get 10 hp from every point of stamina.

That factor is now 1.1*1.04*1.06 = 1.21264, or 12.1264.

However, our health also went down a chunk too, which will cause this to deviate a little from your guess. Not very much though, the difference is on the order of +/- 0.2.

I'll try and find some time to update the Total EH article this coming week. I need to change the scaling factor, obviously, but I also want to put add some commentary about armor and how it interacts with healing, as well as some disclaimers about using EH as your only gearing metric (i.e., don't).
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:54 am

theeeeeeck tell me how much HP I should have :(
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:00 am

Sabindeus wrote:theeeeeeck tell me how much HP I should have :(

About 3.7% less than you used to?

I don't think this really changes gearing philosophy significantly. It just means we can't use "we scale so well with stamina" as an excuse for stacking it in the name of EH. But it should be pretty clear from this threat that it was a bad excuse in the first place.

The scaling of armor with incidental and direct healing makes (or should make) a far larger impact on our gear choices than this stam nerf.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Sabindeus » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:11 am

theckhd wrote:
Sabindeus wrote:theeeeeeck tell me how much HP I should have :(

About 3.7% less than you used to?

I don't think this really changes gearing philosophy significantly. It just means we can't use "we scale so well with stamina" as an excuse for stacking it in the name of EH. But it should be pretty clear from this threat that it was a bad excuse in the first place.

The scaling of armor with incidental and direct healing makes (or should make) a far larger impact on our gear choices than this stam nerf.


So in terms of stats available on gear, Armor vs Stam doesn't seem like a valid tradeoff. The pieces with Armor also have Stam. How should we compare Armor to Avoidance, is my question. I know thats a hard question to answer though.

(edit: yes i know armor vs stam is relevant for trinket selection but that has already been discussed thoroughly)
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:41 am

Sabindeus wrote:So in terms of stats available on gear, Armor vs Stam doesn't seem like a valid tradeoff. The pieces with Armor also have Stam. How should we compare Armor to Avoidance, is my question. I know thats a hard question to answer though.

(edit: yes i know armor vs stam is relevant for trinket selection but that has already been discussed thoroughly)

I would use a similar metric to the one in Digren's enchant/gem guide. Meloree and I cranked out the stam gained over avoidance rating lost ratio for a bunch of enchants and gems, and based on how we were gearing figured out approximate efficiency thresholds.

It would be pretty easy to do a similar thing for armor. Even if you do base it purely on Armor's EH value, you could adjust by using a different threshold level to account for the fact that armor's better than its EH value suggests.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Obor » Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:30 pm

theckhd wrote:The conclusion is correct. The math is almost correct.

The old formula was:
Code: Select all
dA = 12.59*(K+A)/H * dS

where the 12.59 factor comes from kings, Sacred Duty, and Combat Expertise (1.1*1.08*1.06=1.259) and the fact that we get 10 hp from every point of stamina.

That factor is now 1.1*1.04*1.06 = 1.21264, or 12.1264.

However, our health also went down a chunk too, which will cause this to deviate a little from your guess. Not very much though, the difference is on the order of +/- 0.2.

I'll try and find some time to update the Total EH article this coming week. I need to change the scaling factor, obviously, but I also want to put add some commentary about armor and how it interacts with healing, as well as some disclaimers about using EH as your only gearing metric (i.e., don't).


Yeah I realise that the value of AC changes with your HP but the original value of 11.7 was for a notional tank with 50K HP and 30K AC iirc so I was just trying to see what the value was for that same notional tank without allowing for any change in stamina. I currently sit at around 46K HP and 32K AC unbuffed with no aura up so I need to do some calculations on my buffed stats to work the best ratio to use for myself.

With regards to all the back and forward in this thread I think that each perspective has some validity but you need to us some sense in deciding what to apply. In my own tanking I have frequently seen wipes caused by the tank getting a sudden burst of damage that the healers just could not cover in enough time (or they were stopped from healing for a short time for some reason) .. in that case I think the direct comparison between AC and stamina is perfectly valid as you arre looking to see how much damage you can absorb and still survive. In other fights you want to reduce the load on the healers but still have enough EH to get yourself through the damage spikes ... in these cases you would place more emphasis on AC than straight stam assuming you are above the minimum EH requirement. In other fights there is may be a lot of magic damage and you will place more emphasis on stamina than AC. Looking for one-size-fits-all rules to follow just gets you into trouble :?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Overwhelming » Fri Feb 05, 2010 8:20 pm

TL:DR

I read the first six pages of bickering....so can someone point me in the direction of maybe a BIS for 10 and 25 ICC or maybe armor->stam conversion?
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