3.3.2 Threat Issue

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3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Zaephod » Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:59 pm

Greetings Tankadins,

I know 3.3.2's only been out for about a day now, but I've had an issue come up that I'd like to ask y'all about. I know our mechanics didn't change in the least, but warriors' did. Last night, in ICC 10, on both Marrowgar and Saurfang, I couldn't keep threat from our warrior. Did any of y'all experience anything similar?

Even worse, I was hit capped, he wasn't. I was at 34 expertise, he was at 24. He said he wasn't even going all out (not heroic striking and only using the proc shield slam).

I generally operate under the assumption that on bosses, the tank being attacked won't have aggro stolen from him by a tank not being attacked. And really, it's been that way since I started tanking. But last night really really bugged me.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Mikerk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:41 pm

It's possible he was being fed tricks/md's that jumped his aggro back up above yours
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Zaephod » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:44 pm

Mikerk wrote:It's possible he was being fed tricks/md's that jumped his aggro back up above yours


Sadly, the group had no rogue nor hunter. The only external threat boost he had was from Vigilance on a ret pally. Granted, the pally was pulling around 6.7K dps, that's still only an extra ~500 TPS, and shouldn't have been enough to pass me, especially when he's not getting hit and I am.

It's worth noting, we only got through Saurfang last night, so this isn't a Festergut-only issue.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:49 pm

Well, Marrogar does a threat dump during the whirlwind thing. This makes it easier for someone to pull since the 10% threshold is really low. It wouldn't take much if he hit a good streak of crits/non misses for him to pull off of you after that dump. Are you making sure to keep your SOV dot ticking/refreshed during that phase?

On Saurfang I assume you are skipping AOE stuff around the time the adds are going to spawn which would lower your overall threat?
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Zaephod » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:11 pm

For us, it's generally assumed that I'm going to pick up Marrowgar. I do keep SoV ticking the whole time, and he gives me a few seconds to get the boss back in position. He was catching me halfway through the phase and beyond. On Saurfang, I keep Consecrate going b/c they barely take damage from it. I will skip HoR for a bit while they're near, but I should be able to pull away from the warrior while the adds aren't around.

Any others thoughts? I'm gonna check it again tonight, maybe it was just first day of patch lag.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Ruull » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:30 pm

With the change to warriors they are pretty much a 2 button class now (Devastate and Shield slam) if he had been spamming devastates then there's a chance he had a streak of Sword and Board procs. Might want to check your logs for that, if so that could explain why you might have had threat problems.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby glorfindell » Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:57 am

I'm experiencing the same thing as you Zaephod. I've never geared for threat (except for farm content), and I've never had any threat issues even after RF was reduced to 80%. We recently picked up a well geared and excelently played warrior tank, and before 3.3.2 he was doing similar overall threat to me, possibly a little lower. Tuesday night I was the first tank on BQL in order to get the second part of "Once Bitten Twice Shy", and I had to click his vigilance off of me about 30 seconds in since he was up to 90% of my threat on Omen, and gaining. It took an in-combat switch to Libram of Valiance for me to feel like I wasn't threat capping him for the rest of the fight.

I think the big problem is that he is hit-capped (I'm not) and has more expertise then me. I think for first time I'm actually going to consider the threat value of my progression gear pieces instead of just assuming a tight 969 will give me what I need, and solely focusing on survivability. I've already changed my weapon enchant to Accuracy from Blood Draining, and my next emblem purchase will be "the Cat", but I'd really like to find a way to get an extra 50-60 hit rating into my progression set relatively quickly.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Yelena » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:48 pm

glorfindell wrote:I think the big problem is that he is hit-capped (I'm not) and has more expertise then me. I think for first time I'm actually going to consider the threat value of my progression gear pieces instead of just assuming a tight 969 will give me what I need, and solely focusing on survivability. I've already changed my weapon enchant to Accuracy from Blood Draining, and my next emblem purchase will be "the Cat", but I'd really like to find a way to get an extra 50-60 hit rating into my progression set relatively quickly.

Depending on how much money you're willing to spend and/or luck with RNG (and glancing at your Armory profile):

Those are a few items I could think of off the top of my mind. There's also the legs off of Lord Marrowgar (25), but I didn't include those in the list as you already have the Pillars, same goes with the cloak from the Blood Prince Council (25), you already have the EoF cloak.

There's always the option to use hit food as well.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby glorfindell » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:12 pm

Yelena wrote:
glorfindell wrote:I think the big problem is that he is hit-capped (I'm not) and has more expertise then me. I think for first time I'm actually going to consider the threat value of my progression gear pieces instead of just assuming a tight 969 will give me what I need, and solely focusing on survivability. I've already changed my weapon enchant to Accuracy from Blood Draining, and my next emblem purchase will be "the Cat", but I'd really like to find a way to get an extra 50-60 hit rating into my progression set relatively quickly.

Depending on how much money you're willing to spend and/or luck with RNG (and glancing at your Armory profile):

Those are a few items I could think of off the top of my mind. There's also the legs off of Lord Marrowgar (25), but I didn't include those in the list as you already have the Pillars, same goes with the cloak from the Blood Prince Council (25), you already have the EoF cloak.

There's always the option to use hit food as well.


Thanks! The ring looks pretty decent, and is a big upgrade to my 245 item. Depending on AH price I'll probably buy that, as gold isn't really too much of an issue. Unfortunately I don't have the defense rating to wear both the boots and the Pillars. I'll have to rely on RNG for the other two items, at least until I can put together the emblems and tokens to buy t10.264 helm and shoulders for the 2pc bonus, which looks to be a nice threat increase.

On further reflection, I broke up my 2pc t9.245 bonus a week or so ago, which probably also reduced my tps output slightly. Looking at the bigger picture, it's not like I'm threatcapping dps, so sub-optimal threat gearing from myself isn't likely to hinder progression. I've just become so used to being the "high-threat tank" that finding myself unable to pull away from the warrior on a tank-and-spank fight was a little disconcerting, and may just take some getting used to until I put together 2pc t10.264. :P
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Yelena » Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:31 pm

I broke my 2pc T10 recently (basically because I grew weary of the fact that Conqueror tokens do not exist). In all honesty, my threat didn't change, noticeably at least, largely because the "upgrade" had enough strength over the tier that my threat across all abilities increased to compensate for the loss of threat to one ability. 2pc T9's "threat" bonus was never large to begin with; I don't recall any numbers offhand regarding the difference with/without the bonus (weapon-dependent anyway), but the presence of it, or lack thereof, didn't really change threat output a whole lot either way.

A good streak of Sword and Board procs will also cause a Warrior to generate "higher than normal" threat, as Ruull mentioned. Devastate also received a 20% damage increase (and I don't recall seeing any reference to a threat modifier change for that ability, correct me if I'm wrong) with the patch and subsequent hotfixes, which would also increase the threat done by that ability. Couple that with the 30% higher threat modifier on Shield Slam that came with the patch, and Warrior threat overall did increase.

The changes were needed. Before the patch I quickly became threat capped (without a Salvation or canceling Righteous Fury) on tank swap fights or fights where I spend part of them "Prot-DPS'ing" for whatever reason, and the other tank was a comparably geared/skilled Warrior. Since the patch, that's definitely been less of an issue.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Arjuna » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:40 pm

glorfindell wrote:and I had to click his vigilance off of me

Shouldn't he be putting that on the top dps:er instead of his fellow tank? It doesn't stack with BoSanc anyway...
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Yelena » Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:31 am

Depends. Normal mode Lana'thel doesn't require tank swaps (we'll see what the hard mode has in store, though tank swapping I imagine will be part of it), and if the Warrior was soaking they shouldn't need to be using Vigilance at all. Conversely, if a Warrior is main tanking, putting it on the soaker is an acceptable practice.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby xstratax » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:48 am

Actually since the most recent long maintenance, I have found threat to be acting odd. In ToC our Rogue pulled off me immediately following a Taunt + AS + ShoR when picking up Gormokk, to mae matters worse he was in Consc prior to and during the pull. She hadnt yet even started to auto attack, just was standing there. Also in my last ICC10 I was pulling off the OT who was tanking a Deathbound Ward. I was using SoComm, he was using SoCor, and I wasnt even using a full rotation nor had been there for the pickup. I immediately checked Omen, and I was at least 100k threat under him. He and I are similarly geared, and have never had anything happen like that before.

Anyone else have issues, or maybe can explain whats up with that?
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby Poetry » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:05 pm

In my experience, Deathbound Wards like to switch back and forth between tanks on their own, regardless of threat. I've had this happen plenty in ICC where I'll be standing near the person tanking the Ward, I won't be attacking (or just autoattacking) and the Ward will flipflop targets between us regardless of who has the highest threat. I blame their terribly large frames and broken pathing.
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Re: 3.3.2 Threat Issue

Postby gibborim » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:03 pm

Poetry wrote:In my experience, Deathbound Wards like to switch back and forth between tanks on their own, regardless of threat. I've had this happen plenty in ICC where I'll be standing near the person tanking the Ward, I won't be attacking (or just autoattacking) and the Ward will flipflop targets between us regardless of who has the highest threat. I blame their terribly large frames and broken pathing.


It is just some weird targetting bug with their saberlash. Their threat stays normal despite targetting anyone their saberlash is hitting.
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