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Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis - WotLK/3.x

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby TreeofMana » Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:48 pm

tlitp wrote:
Thels wrote:
tlitp wrote:Since Theck/Jere didn't find time to test BW, I'll post the request here as well :
(...)

Would Vindication be a problem for that?

Please, no JotJ/Vindication applications. This, combined with the exclusion of specials/seals/Reckoning, will grant a more steady/controlled environment. Getting a log that is polluted with any other procs makes that harder the task to track only one very specific variable. (Divine Plea and Redoubt procs are OK, heals as well; however, a paladin with 2000+ BV should be all but impervious to Thrym's attacks)

@ Theck and Jere : no problem, we're all subject to "the afk factor". After all, my own situation is worse - I don't even have an active account. :lol:


tlitp wrote:Since Theck/Jere didn't find time to test BW, I'll post the request here as well :
1. equip a block-heavy set (block-capped, 2000+ BV)
2. equip this (horde only) or this, toss a BW
3. spec 0/5 Reckoning (mandatory); the rest are all optional
4. get to the target dummy hero
5. autoattack him to death; no specials/no seals (mandatory)
6. parse the combat log (WMO/WoL)
7. specify your stats - weapon/avoidance/haste/hit/exp

This should provide a ~20 mins testing session, which will serve as a final confirmation of the analytical model of BW. Thanks.


So overall, would it matter if I'm block capped or no?(I'm still over 2100 BV) since I wouldn't mind running this simulation.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby TreeofMana » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:42 pm

Alright, I got done testing the uptime of BW so here are my results. This is the spec I ran with. Would it be a good idea to run with 3 points into Reckoning and see how it turns out? or can we just eliminate Reckoning into the uptime of BW?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby tlitp » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:15 pm

Just to be sure, your gear set had the following stats, as per armory profile ?
Code: Select all
def = 819
dod = 659
par = 253

hit = 167
exp = 155

base swing timer = 1.7


Exceptional work, thank you. That's more than enough, no further testing is necessary.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby TreeofMana » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:18 pm

tlitp wrote:Just to be sure, your gear set had the following stats, as per armory profile ?
Code: Select all
def = [b]783[/b]
dod = [b]615[/b]
par = 253

hit = [b]103[/b]
exp = 155

base swing timer = [b]3.0[/b]


Exceptional work, thank you.


Oh sorry, yeah TreeofMana isn't the name of my toon's name haha. I'll login and give you the numbers. Are those the only stats you're really looking for?

EDIT: Oh sorry, I forgot WoL had my character's name >.< But no, I had slightly less hit and avoidance as I was using this with BW. I'll still login and give you the correct numbers.

EDIT2: This edit now contains the right numbers (bolded) for my stats when I was using this with BW.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby tlitp » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:37 pm

Thanks for the clarification.


On a completely unrelated topic, apparently Troggbane is no longer "the sex". Blizzard and their love for HS-spamming warriors... warriors > paladins, no matter what Invisusira may claim. :lol:
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby jere » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:20 am

What happened with Troggbane?

Also, on a slightly related note, has anyone tested ShoR to see if the Shield Slam changes for warriors translated over to paladins or not? It wasn't mentioned in the patch notes, but they are similar abilities, so I figured I would check. I'll try to get some testing on that this weekend if we get our 3 foot blizzard as planned lol.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Chicken » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:25 am

jere wrote:What happened with Troggbane?
The version originally datamined had a speed of 2.00, it's been changed to the normal fast speed tanking weapons have now. I can't say I'm surprised, as there were some other changes to items from their initially datamined versions as well (mostly in the forms of socket colors changing, but still).
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Repartee » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:37 am

Theck, we need another weapon analysis. Lots of changes since you last did one.

Last Word proc is now 100% uptime as long as you're hitting something. (I can confirm the proc rate as I picked one up last night. Is it safe to assume mongoose is still the preferred enchant?) Maybe blood draining as the BoL might increase the healing portion of it. Hmmm.

Troggbane is now 1.6 speed.

And 25 man Lich King drops Mithrios.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:47 am

3.3 Weapon Analysis, round 3

Lich King weapons are now datamined, so we can run the final round of the analysis. There are a few missing socket bonuses on the items (mostly the LK DPS weapons), but they're going to be small enough threat adjustments that I'm probably not going to bother going back and fixing them.

Notable changes this round:
  • Troggbane is now 1.6-speed, and we have both versions of it
  • There's a new spell weapon from LK10
  • We have heroic and non-heroic versions of tank, DPS, and spell weapons from the 25-man LK encounter
  • Last Word now has a very high uptime. I've modeled it at 100% for these calculations.

Also want to remind everyone that I'm artificially forcing the expertise and hit from gear to be 0. This way each weapon will get the full benefit of its stat contributions. Keep this in mind when choosing weapons, because if the weapon takes you over the hit cap and expertise soft-cap its expertise or hit contribution to your threat output will be diminished somewhat.

To fix some inconsistencies in gem choices, all red sockets are now agi/stam and all blue or yellow sockets are Solid Zircons. This doesn't have that much of an effect anyway, but someone will inevitably ask me if I don't say it.

----------------------------------------

Quick overview of what we know about weapons and their effect on our threat:
  • Slow weapons are good thanks to SoV 5-stack procs (see past calculations).
  • The only spec-related choice that can change the outcome is Reckoning.
  • Higher-DPS weapons tend to trump lower-DPS weapons
  • Threat stats make only a minor difference (generally less than a 13-ilvl upgrade in weapon dps)

I think most people have converted to a spec with SoCom instead of Conviction, but since I've done all the other runs with the 53/18 1V+3C and 3R+1V+3C specs, I'm just going to keep with convention. There are notes at the end on how to modify this if you pick up more or less points in Reckoning.

Thanks to Blizzard's inane "lets make identical items with different names" policy for Coliseum, I've generated tables and plots for both Alliance and Horde versions of the weapons.

I've included all of the 2.6-speed melee DPS weapons from Coliseum and ICC. There's no point in adding the 1.6-speed melee DPS weapons, as we'd be better off using a tanking weapon if we're going with a fast weapon. In addition, the difference in TPS between fast tank weapons and fast DPS weapons is very small.

Note that this list is not incorporating racial expertise bonuses - in a close race, the expertise bonus will probably tip the scales in favor of the race's preferred weapons. Be sure to factor that in for yourself if you're using this to gauge an upgrade.

Setup
Rotation: 969
Seals: SoV
Glyphs: V
Talents: 1V+3C and 3R+1V+3C (see the Glossary or the talent analysis if you don't know what these mean)
Gear: T10 Progression Set
Weapons: Too many to list, basically every epic tank weapon in WotLK as well as all 2.6-speed melee DPS weapons from Coliseum, and ICC.

I've broken down the plots a bit to make it more manageable. The first three plots will be tanking weapons only, and the fourth plot will show DPS weapons and a few representative tanking weapons.

The data table and first plot will be sorted both by instance and type. The top group on the graph is all slow DPS weapons, the middle group is Coliseum tanking weapons, and the bottom group is Ulduar and Naxx tanking weapons. The table is inverted (DPS weapons at the bottom, tank weapons at the top).
Code: Select all
Alliance List (scroll down for Horde)
                                             TPS       
Weapon                            ilvl   1V+3C  3R+1V+3C
Broken Promise                    213    8978     9256 
Peacekeeper Blade                 219    8647     8826 
Stoneguard                        219    8695     8884 
Legacy of Thunder                 219    8733     8933 
Last Laugh                        226    8757     8949 
Titanguard                        232    8802     8997 
Shiver                            232    8809     9004 
Sorthalis                         239    8883     9081 

Lucky Old Sun                     219    8731     8921 
Gleaming Quel'Serrar              232    8840     9077 
Crusader's Glory                  232    8813     8998 
Falric's Wrist-Chopper            232    8874     9071 
Rimefang's Claw                   232    8889     9094 
Burnished  Quel'Serrar            245    8955     9200 
Crusader's Glory (245)            245    8942     9133 
Honor of the Fallen               245    8978     9178 
The Facelifter                    251    8992     9194 
Bonebreaker Scepter (251)         251    9023     9236 
Troggbane, AotFK                  258    9130     9336 
Silverwing Defender               258    9129     9336 
The Facelifter (264)              264    9119     9327 
Bonebreaker Scepter (264)         264    9178     9398 
Last Word                         264    9384     9624 
Mithrios, BL                      271    9243     9455 
Troggbane, AotFK (271)            271    9271     9484 
Last Word (277)                   277    9579     9829 
Mithrios, BL (284)                284    9425     9646 

Ghoulslicer                       219    9092     9387 
Hate-Forged Cleaver               219    9106     9401 
Singed Vis'kag the Bloodletter    232    9075     9373 
Vulmir, the Northern Tempest      232    9204     9506 
Nighttime                         232    9246     9549 
The Grinder                       232    9253     9556 
Black Icicle                      232    9271     9576 
The Lion's Maw                    232    9272     9576 
Caress of Insanity                232    9296     9610 
Tempered Vis'kag the Bloodletter  245    9197     9504 
Raging Deathbringer               245    9238     9556 
Stormpike Cleaver                 245    9364     9675 
The Grinder (245)                 245    9401     9714 
The Lion's Maw (245)              245    9424     9737 
Gutbuster                         251    9485     9804 
Frost Giant's Cleaver             251    9486     9806 
Cudgel of Furious Justice         251    9490     9809 
Soulbreaker                       251    9501     9820 
Quel'Delar, CotS                  251    9520     9850 
Relentless Gladiator's Longblade  258    9501     9825 
Stormpike Cleaver (258)           258    9503     9823 
Remorseless                       258    9567     9891 
WG Slicer                         264    9581     9910 
Bloodvenom Blade                  264    9587     9915 
Gutbuster (264)                   264    9665     9995 
Frost Giant's Cleaver (264)       264    9669    10000 
Soulbreaker (264)                 264    9671    10000 
Havoc's Call, BoLK                271    9786    10122 
Bloodvenom Blade (277)            277    9774    10113 
WG Longblade                      277    9750    10090 
Havoc's Call, BoLK                284    9984    10333

The Turning Tide                  226    8538     8728 
Seethe                            232    8677     8905 
Hammer of Purified Flame          251    8705     8903 
Frost Needle (251)                251    8687     8883 
Quel'Delar, LotM                  251    8837     9065 
Lockjaw (251)                     251    8825     9059 
Valius, GotL                      258    8916     9155 
Frost Needle (264)                264    8801     9001 
Lockjaw (264)                     264    9005     9246 
Valius, GotL (271)                271    9103     9349 
Bloodsurge, KTBoA                 271    8977     9184 
Bloodsurge, KTBoA (284)           284    9242     9460 

Horde List
                                             TPS       
Weapon                            ilvl   1V+3C  3R+1V+3C
Broken Promise                    213    8978     9256 
Peacekeeper Blade                 219    8647     8826 
Stoneguard                        219    8695     8884 
Legacy of Thunder                 219    8733     8933 
Last Laugh                        226    8757     8949 
Titanguard                        232    8802     8997 
Shiver                            232    8809     9004 
Sorthalis                         239    8883     9081 

Lucky Old Sun                     219    8731     8921 
Gleaming Quel'Serrar              232    8840     9077 
Ardent Guard                      232    8813     8998 
Falric's Wrist-Chopper            232    8874     9071 
Rimefang's Claw                   232    8889     9094 
Burnished  Quel'Serrar            245    8955     9200 
Ardent Guard (245)                245    8942     9133 
Blood and Glory                   245    8978     9178 
The Facelifter                    251    8992     9194 
Bonebreaker Scepter (251)         251    9023     9236 
Troggbane, AotFK                  258    9130     9336 
Orgrim's Deflector                258    9129     9336 
The Facelifter (264)              264    9119     9327 
Bonebreaker Scepter (264)         264    9178     9398 
Last Word                         264    9384     9624 
Mithrios, BL                      271    9243     9455 
Troggbane, AotFK (271)            271    9271     9484 
Last Word (277)                   277    9579     9829 
Mithrios, BL (284)                284    9425     9646
 
Ghoulslicer                       219    9092     9387 
Hate-Forged Cleaver               219    9106     9401 
Singed Vis'kag the Bloodletter    232    9075     9373 
Vulmir, the Northern Tempest      232    9204     9506 
Nighttime                         232    9246     9549 
Blackhorn Bludgeon                232    9253     9556 
Black Icicle                      232    9271     9576 
Frostblade Hatchet                232    9272     9576 
Caress of Insanity                232    9296     9610 
Tempered Vis'kag the Bloodletter  245    9197     9504 
Raging Deathbringer               245    9238     9556 
Hellscream Slicer                 245    9364     9675 
Blackhorn Bludgeon (245)          245    9401     9714 
Frostblade Hatchet (245)          245    9424     9737 
Gutbuster                         251    9485     9804 
Frost Giant's Cleaver             251    9486     9806 
Cudgel of Furious Justice         251    9490     9809 
Soulbreaker                       251    9501     9820 
Quel'Delar, CotS                  251    9520     9850 
Relentless Gladiator's Longblade  258    9501     9825 
Hellscream Slicer (258)           258    9503     9823 
Cudgel of the Damned              258    9567     9891 
WG Slicer                         264    9581     9910 
Bloodvenom Blade                  264    9587     9915 
Gutbuster (264)                   264    9665     9995 
Frost Giant's Cleaver (264)       264    9669    10000 
Soulbreaker (264)                 264    9671    10000 
Havoc's Call, BoLK                271    9786    10122 
Bloodvenom Blade (277)            277    9774    10113 
WG Longblade                      277    9750    10090 
Havoc's Call, BoLK                284    9984    10333 

The Turning Tide                  226    8538     8728 
Seethe                            232    8677     8905 
Hammer of Purified Flame          251    8705     8903 
Frost Needle (251)                251    8687     8883 
Quel'Delar, LotM                  251    8837     9065 
Lockjaw (251)                     251    8825     9059 
Valius, GotL                      258    8916     9155 
Frost Needle (264)                264    8801     9001 
Lockjaw (264)                     264    9005     9246 
Valius, GotL (271)                271    9103     9349 
Bloodsurge, KTBoA                 271    8977     9184 
Bloodsurge, KTBoA (284)           284    9242     9460 


Image
Horde Names

Mithrios is the new addition from the LK's arsenal, and it's surprisingly average. It's a good weapon, no doubt about it. But it's nothing special outside of its high ilvl.

Troggbane got smacked with the nerf bat between our original glimpse at it and the LK's release. It's now down to 1.6 speed, which puts it right in the ballpark of all the other tanking weapons of the same ilvl. While it's no longer head and shoulders above its peers, the heroic version still clocks in slightly ahead of the normal version of Mithrios.

Last Word's proc uptime has strengthened it considerably in the threat department. It's now the highest-threat tank weapon in its ilvl category, and the heroic version is the highest-threat tanking weapon period. In fact, the normal version is bested only by its own heroic version and heroic Mithrios.


The next plots are just sorted differently, by TPS and by ilvl respectively.
Image
Horde Names
Image
Horde Names


Here's the plot with the slow DPS weapons, along with the "upper tier" tanking weapons (ToC/ICC). Again, this one is sorted by instance, then ilvl, then TPS. I've left off some of the 219 and 232 weapons this time around to make room.
Image
Horde Names

Not much new here. A 251-ilvl DPS weapon will roughly match the TPS output of any tanking weapon in the game short of Last Word, and a 264 or higher DPS weapon will beat that.

Havoc's Call (the new LK drop) is a beast, as is to be expected. If you can get your hands on one, have fun with it.

For the PVP-capable, Wrathful Gladiator's Longblade and Wrathful Gladiator's Slicer are pretty solid high-stamina options at their ilvl.


Finally, I've run the numbers for a few spell damage weapons as well. We all know that spell damage weapons are inferior, but now we have a place to point to with numbers to prove it.
Image
Code: Select all
                                             TPS       
Weapon                           ilvl   1V+3C  3R+1V+3C
The Turning Tide                  226    8538     8728 
Seethe                            232    8677     8905 
Hammer of Purified Flame          251    8705     8903 
Frost Needle (251)                251    8687     8883 
Quel'Delar, LotM                  251    8837     9065 
Lockjaw (251)                     251    8825     9059 
Valius, GotL                      258    8916     9155 
Frost Needle (264)                264    8801     9001 
Lockjaw (264)                     264    9005     9246 
Valius, GotL (271)                271    9103     9349 
Bloodsurge, KTBoA                 271    8977     9184 
Bloodsurge, KTBoA (284)           284    9242     9460 


The take-home message from this plot is that even the best spell damage weapons in the game are inferior to tanking weapons available two tiers of content ago. The heroic version of Bloodsurge is getting close though. However, if you're going to use a weapon with no defensive stats in the first place, you'd be better off with a 251+ DPS weapon anyway.

We can use the rotation_AoE file to see whether this changes at all for aoe threat, using the limited skill set:
Image

Again, what we gain in Consecration damage, we lose in HotR and Seal of Command procs. And remember that all of these weapons would fall behind a much lower-ilvl (and thus more accessible) slow melee DPS weapon.

Given the relative availability of tanking and slow DPS weapons this tier (from both raids and the heroic 5-man instance), there's no good reason a tankadin should be rolling on spell damage weapons.



TLDR version:
  • Slow weapons are good for threat. A quick check of the numbers from this analysis shows:
    • Going from a 1.6 speed to a 2.6 speed weapon of equal DPS nets you around 450 TPS.
    • Each point in Reckoning will add about 80 TPS for a 1.6 speed weapon, while it will add about 130 TPS for a 2.6 speed weapon.
    • The combination of these two things means that a 2.6 speed weapon will be ahead of a 1.6 speed weapon of equal dps by 450+50*(# points in Reckoning), as a rule of thumb.
  • If your tanking weapon is growing long in the tooth, head to the heroic 5-man to pick up one of the 232-ilvl weapons (tanking or dps), or better yet to normal 10-man ICC to pick up Bonebreaker Scepter.
  • Spellpower Weapons are bad. Don't use them if you have any other option whatsoever.
  • Troggbane got nerfed, it's now only average for its ilvl.
  • Mithrios is average for its ilvl as well, though since it's a higher-ilvl, it's better than most other weapons.
  • Last Word got buffed, it's now a srong choice for a threat weapon. It out-threats anything that's not 15+ ilvls higher (i.e. a half-tier ahead).
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Repartee » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:30 am

Once again, thanks Theck.

Aeoliann found the answer to the question about blessing of light affecting blood draining proc. Apparently doesn't affect it. :roll:
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Dreamcrusher » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:48 am

Sorry to ask, search was giving me BC results...

Has there been any comparison on elixirs/flasks for TPS/DPS?

I'd assume the AP flask is king, but wouldn't be surprised if it were outperformed by Mighty Strength + some guardian elixir.


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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Thels » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:57 am

Jsut out of curiousity. Would that mean that Last Word would be the preferable weapon to use for Dualwield DK's?
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:05 am

Dreamcrusher wrote:Has there been any comparison on elixirs/flasks for TPS/DPS?

I'd assume the AP flask is king, but wouldn't be surprised if it were outperformed by Mighty Strength + some guardian elixir.

Not recently, but it's pretty easy to do using values from the Stat Analysis:

You get 0.91 TPS per point of AP and 3.08 TPS per point of strength.

The AP flask gives you 180 AP, for
180*0.91 = 164 TPS

The STR elixir gives you 63 STR after Kings and Divine Strength, for
63*3.08 = 194 TPS

That's if you're below the block cap on ShoR, so it's a maximum value. For a minimum value, we use 2.7 TPS per point of STR to get 170 TPS.

So either way, the STR elixir should give you more TPS than the flask. DPS numbers work out basically the same way. The STR elixir is ahead below block cap, but they're basically identical above it.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby theckhd » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:06 am

Thels wrote:Jsut out of curiousity. Would that mean that Last Word would be the preferable weapon to use for Dualwield DK's?

No idea. I would assume that this depends on whether the buffs stacked. If not, you'd probably be better off combining one Last Word with another tanking weapon.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
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Re: Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work)

Postby Awyndel » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:28 am

I was wondering about a couple of things.

Regarding the weapon tps, could a slow dps weapon be better then 264 last word for aoe with socom? Sorry to ask but I didn't see any slow dps weapons in the aoe graph.

Then I was wondering about some others things, more to do with survival. I realise it's slightly off topic but I don't know where else to put it.

Any thoughts on how strong the +healing buff on last word is? Does it compare to 300 spellpower? How much is it compared to divinity? Is it viable because we don't give up talent points but only some avoidance and a tiny bit of stamina?

I was also looking at the mongoose calculations. Its quite impressive. I am beginning to wonder if blood draining is really worth it considering it doesnt proc a lot and not always gets full stacks. It is nice that it heals after an ad proc for safe recovery. I have been trying to figur out my WOL logs to see if it proced often for me but I can't make head or tails of it. Trying to figur out when it saved my life or not. Althought I realise that mongoose only adds about 80 tps. Going slightly off topic here I realise.
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