Armor vs HP Math Help

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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby bashef » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:07 am

Wrathy wrote:We love armor, we stack it, we embrace it, however there are some class differences which may make our choice of trinkets different. Extending the reach of AD is something that comes to mind when we may benefit more from it. The relative gains of 2% armor reduction (Because DR is so heavy at the armor levels we have) is not as valuable to extending that range of a given 30% reduction when you need it most.


As was touched on above, discussion of AD isn't relevant either. Because the DRs compound, whether you have a wider range where you take relatively more damage, or a narrower one where you take relatively less, it's identical in the amount of raw physical damage that's required to kill you.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:42 am

theckhd wrote:To be fair, a lot of that's on my head as well.


Well no, not really. Warrior theorycrafting is a lot like two Klingons battling for the honor of their house. We puff our chests out a lot, pull our bat'leths out, and go to town on each other. In internet terms, this means I call you a poopyhead in no uncertain terms, and you fight back until one has emerged the victor. We then drink blood wine together and celebrate past battles.

It's basically a tradition.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:44 am

Wrathy wrote:Extending the reach of AD is something that comes to mind when we may benefit more from it. The relative gains of 2% armor reduction (Because DR is so heavy at the armor levels we have) is not as valuable to extending that range of a given 30% reduction when you need it most.

This is an interesting point, and something that hadn't crossed my mind. Though I'm not sure the numbers work out right.

Let's say you have H=40k hit points with an empty trinket slot, 60% mitigation from armor (roughly 25k armor), and take an D=80k hit after Armor mitigation (pre-mitigation 200k).

Boosting armor mitigation by 2% reduces damage to 76k, a reduction of 4k. It would take about 3k armor to accomplish that.

Extending the range of your health by 2850 (in the ballpark of a stam trinket) extends the range of AD by 1k, which means that you reduce the damage taken by only 300. In a "whittle-down" situation with healing, you may cross this region a few times, but not enough to catch up with the armor trinket.

Admittedly, I'm not comparing apples to apples here, since there isn't a 3k armor trinket available, but scale it down to 2k armor (~1.5% mitigation) and you're still reducing damage by 3k with the armor trinket.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Mulack » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:54 am

heuvarius wrote:The most common tank death scenario for myself is when my healers are taken out of action. E.G. healers being linked on Blood-Queen. In such cases, 100->0 tend to happen with me having very little incoming heals.

Again, YMMV, but it's a fairly clear decision to me when it comes down to which trinket I choose.

See this is where I don't agree. Posts like this one or the ones where people say "I just stack stam because it's all overheal anyway and I just soak that up" don't make sense to me based on experience. A couple people get what we're saying, several do not.

If you think healer movement means all heals stop, you've never played a healer or your healers are very bad. Shamans and Paladins definitely lose a ton of throughput or have to rely on cooldowns while they're moving, but they still have things they can do. In addition, they're rarely ever your only healer outside of a 10 man. In just about any fight where there's tank stress in 25 man I have at least 2 healers and HoTs from a druid. Most required movement (outside of fights like firefighter) is for short intervals so you might dip for ~2-3 seconds, but it's unlikely you're going to die. Even in your example, the paladin can holy shock as he's running to add a small buffer, or he can indirectly buy himself time for healing later (by renewing judgements, beacon, sacred shield etc. early). Saying you receive 0 heals, or even an insignificant amount of heals during that time is probably not correct. A shaman also has instant cast options, buffs to renew, etc. several of which don't require nature's swiftness. In most cases a good healer will say something when they have to move so other healers can be ready with an instant heal or shield on the tank if they see him dip. The only things that really take your healers out of action entirely are deaths and range issues. In other situations they have some things they can do to fill those GCDs to add a small healing buffer or to buy them time later (and you can buy them time with both armor and stamina, one of them requires actions later to "catch up" one of them does not).

No one is saying you throw math out the window, we're saying there's other factors the models don't take into account. Many people are far too eager to skip to the conclusions in these models without understanding the underlying assumptions. Some of the basics here are helpful to know, but you need to understand what isn't incorporated into the models and not cling dogmatically to something that has holes (some of which are very complicated to figure out). Tank gear selection is one part math, one part intuition about where your best value is for the fight you're tanking. Obviously some mechanics favor stamina over armor, some do not. Relying on a single all-inclusive derived stat like EH to make a "one-size fits all" gear set is not min/maxing your survival. This isn't like DPS or threat generation where there's a rote ability priority list and you can (relatively) easily model it. Many different factors feed into tank damage taken and survivability. In some ways I draw a lot of parallels to EH math and some of the die-hard quants we had in our risk management department. Models are a great tool, but they're rarely ever perfect when you start throwing multiple variables into the mix.

Equivalencies rarely ever work outside of one tier of content, sorry. Your stats are interconnected and trying to simplify it all down to one stat is eventually going to cause issues when gear starts scaling up. You may not be completely wrong with a rough rule of thumb, but I can assure you that 2000 armor has a different "stamina value vs burst" based on your block value/chance, the size of the shields and heals you're receiving, the timing between hits, your avoidance, and the size of a hits you're receiving. You can't logically argue otherwise.

Anyway, I think the take-away for everyone is that if you're relying on someone else to "do the maths" for you and you don't bother to understand the underlying assumptions (which happens quite a bit in the WoW community), you're not really min/maxing. Copycatting someone's gear selection is fine as long as you understand what fights they're using it for. There are rarely ever blanket "BiS" lists for tanking, some items will always be used, but some are very situational. If you're not doing the hardmodes, then it probably doesn't matter that much, but if you are, it's important to remember that.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Wrathy » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:10 am

Mulack wrote:Anyway, I think the take-away for everyone is that if you're relying on someone else to "do the maths" for you and you don't bother to understand the underlying assumptions (which happens quite a bit in the WoW community), you're not really min/maxing. Copycatting someone's gear selection is fine as long as you understand what fights they're using it for. There are rarely ever blanket "BiS" lists for tanking, some items will always be used, but some are very situational. If you're not doing the hardmodes, then it probably doesn't matter that much, but if you are, it's important to remember that.


This is the much appreciated and 100% correct conclusion of the discussion from my point of view. Now since you are new to our forums and probably have not had a chance to read all of the resource threads amongst the countless pages of posts, then you haven't seen that we are completely on the same page.

And I agree that there is not a BiS list, and we as a community have come to that conclusion a while ago, I personally swap gear around at least 10 times an instance. I have to say that I personally appreciate the discussion which has come out of this thread, even if it started off rough, it has become a very worthwhile thread.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby lythac » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:47 am

When looking at deaths in logs you actually have to go through the entire log from the start. Whilst we can say for a death whether using a sta/armor trinket would have saved you, you can't say you would still be alive at that point if you had been using the other trinket.

A burst death you would have prevented by wearing a sta trinket is irrelevant if you would have died earlier due to a slow death (with healing) your armor trinket prevented.

A slow death (with healing) you would have prevented whilst wearing an armor trinket is irrelevant if you would have died earlier to a burst death your sta trinket prevented.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Roots » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:59 am

Keep in mind that even though the concept of EH is very well fleshed out in threads here, there are many tanks that don't follow the exact conclusions, relying on that one part intuition from fight to fight, sometimes from wipe to wipe. While there are new variables and models introduced in this thread (which Theckd will most likely reply to with pounding headache math), understand that this whole forum is not as "EH only" as other forums may perceive.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Mulack » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:02 pm

Wrathy wrote:This is the much appreciated and 100% correct conclusion of the discussion from my point of view. Now since you are new to our forums and probably have not had a chance to read all of the resource threads amongst the countless pages of posts, then you haven't seen that we are completely on the same page.

And I agree that there is not a BiS list, and we as a community have come to that conclusion a while ago, I personally swap gear around at least 10 times an instance. I have to say that I personally appreciate the discussion which has come out of this thread, even if it started off rough, it has become a very worthwhile thread.

I've been aware of this site for a while, I just never posted before since I didn't see the value in it. I'm a warrior, my perspective is obviously going to be different and contributing to a community of mostly prot paladins doesn't make a whole lot of sense. James and Hamlet were talking about the concepts in here elsewhere which is what prompted my post. The whole extended EH concept has been getting a fair amount of attention on other sites that I do frequent, and there are holes in it that people seemed to refuse to acknowledge. "We has maths!" seems to be the battle cry. Great, you have math. Here's the assumptions you're missing.

In addition, it annoys the hell out of me when I see alts or PUG tanks when I'm on an alt using inferior gear to tank with (especially when I'm healing the paper tank). At those lower gear levels, stuff like my mana pool and their survivability does matter. If I ask them why they're using something their mis-quoted logic seems to come from places like this. Just because you've got really good class mechanics and a massively inflated itembudget to prop up poor decisions doesn't mean you should take advantage of that, especially with an expansion coming up (and we all know the whole world will change when that happens).

For what it's worth, if it were at all productive I would have trolled the crap out of a few of the posters in this thread with their airheaded logic (some of the posts in here were grade-A stupid).
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Kihra » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:11 pm

Mulack wrote: "We has maths!" seems to be the battle cry. Great, you have math. Here's the assumptions you're missing.


This is a problem whenever anyone produces mathematical formulas for this game. People begin to apply the math always, even in situations where it isn't valid. They forget about gear level, raid tiers, specifics of various fights, etc.

I don't think that's the fault of the people who came up with the math, since none of them ever said, for example, "You should blindly follow the rules of EH always!"

Misunderstandings are just an inevitable consequence of producing mathematical rules and posting them on a Web site. :)
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:18 pm

Well EH theory has always had some holes in it, that's why the Avoidance vs EH debate persists as well. In fact that debate is not all that dissimilar to this. Generally speaking though, if you geared towards max EH, there are very few differences in gear choices you'd have versus armor, and neither would always be right.

The whole math thing is a bit overplayed in this thread too. EH theory wasn't created here, and the bulk of the fancy math here is about threat. In fact one of the nice things about EH is that it's really simple and displays of math are generally not needed. However, when it's challenged, folks are obviously going to ask for either math, or the model for the basis of the challenge.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:06 pm

Mulack wrote:No one is saying you throw math out the window, we're saying there's other factors the models don't take into account. Many people are far too eager to skip to the conclusions in these models without understanding the underlying assumptions. Some of the basics here are helpful to know, but you need to understand what isn't incorporated into the models and not cling dogmatically to something that has holes (some of which are very complicated to figure out). Tank gear selection is one part math, one part intuition about where your best value is for the fight you're tanking. Obviously some mechanics favor stamina over armor, some do not. Relying on a single all-inclusive derived stat like EH to make a "one-size fits all" gear set is not min/maxing your survival. This isn't like DPS or threat generation where there's a rote ability priority list and you can (relatively) easily model it. Many different factors feed into tank damage taken and survivability. In some ways I draw a lot of parallels to EH math and some of the die-hard quants we had in our risk management department. Models are a great tool, but they're rarely ever perfect when you start throwing multiple variables into the mix.

Equivalencies rarely ever work outside of one tier of content, sorry. Your stats are interconnected and trying to simplify it all down to one stat is eventually going to cause issues when gear starts scaling up. You may not be completely wrong with a rough rule of thumb, but I can assure you that 2000 armor has a different "stamina value vs burst" based on your block value/chance, the size of the shields and heals you're receiving, the timing between hits, your avoidance, and the size of a hits you're receiving. You can't logically argue otherwise.

Anyway, I think the take-away for everyone is that if you're relying on someone else to "do the maths" for you and you don't bother to understand the underlying assumptions (which happens quite a bit in the WoW community), you're not really min/maxing. Copycatting someone's gear selection is fine as long as you understand what fights they're using it for. There are rarely ever blanket "BiS" lists for tanking, some items will always be used, but some are very situational. If you're not doing the hardmodes, then it probably doesn't matter that much, but if you are, it's important to remember that.


I thought it was kind of obvious that tanks that don't change clothes for the fight depending on what it is aren't min-maxing. What you say above is correct and a mindset that any solid progression tank should try to keep in mind: understand the fight mechanics, understand where damage is coming from, understand what kind of damage that is, and know what to do in order to deal with it all.

One problem I've had with what you've brought to the table is that bit about "intuition." To me, "intuition" can be roughly translated into "hand waving." Someone mentioned earlier that it doesn't take much for armor to outstrip stamina. My question remains the same: How much is "much"? What criteria or rubric are you using to judge?

Yes, there are holes in the models -- no one should deny this. What do you use in its place?

Jamesvz obviously sees some point of trade-off between armor and stamina, as he uses 30 stam gems, instead of stam/agil. Why? Is the 20 armor (sans Kings) from the stam/agil gems insufficient to outweigh 15 stam? In his belt he has 2x 30 stam gems, instead of matching the socket bonus, which would be -6stam +20armor). If straight armor gems were available, would you use them? How much armor would they have to provide to be more attractive than gemming 30 stam? Where do you think that line is?

Of course I agree such judgement calls are going to vary greatly from fight to fight, the makeup of your healing corps and so on. It sounds like the new modeling bits Theck has percolating in his head are going to start to attempt to take some of this into account -- at which point these models start approaching the complexity of large macro economic models. Hopefully his will be more useful.

As far as paladins stacking armor: I do. Unbuffed in my armor set I'm at 35,164ac/46,859hp. These numbers are kind of silly because I change gear sets a lot, which is something every "end game" tankadin on these boards has long advocated, so what I'm wearing for any given boss is going to change. At this level of content it's not unusual for me to wear DMC:G, because a) I'm not in any danger of dying, and b) fuck Mages.

For the record, I think armor is going to be immensely useful for heroic ICC. WoW's encounter model has explicitly changed from "you must have X hp (or EH) to ride this boss" to "we're taking away 20% of your dodge so we can make bosses that don't hit as hard but hit more often." And, yes, the usefulness of armor's effect on many hits is going to be magnified. Depending on what the next encounters bring (hopefully it's more than "boss hits a little harder but now you have to do the fight while standing in coldfire"), tanks will still want to dress for the fight.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Fri Jan 29, 2010 1:54 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:Jamesvz obviously sees some point of trade-off between armor and stamina, as he uses 30 stam gems, instead of stam/agil. Why? Is the 20 armor (sans Kings) from the stam/agil gems insufficient to outweigh 15 stam? In his belt he has 2x 30 stam gems, instead of matching the socket bonus, which would be -6stam +20armor).


Well, yes. I'm not actually retarded, you know.

And definitely, if there were armor gems on let's say a red socket they'd see a lot of play in my gear.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Aelfric » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:03 pm

At first I thought JamesVZ was King Douche of Trolltown, but I changed my mind after reading this:

JamesVZ wrote:
theckhd wrote:To be fair, a lot of that's on my head as well.


Well no, not really. Warrior theorycrafting is a lot like two Klingons battling for the honor of their house. We puff our chests out a lot, pull our bat'leths out, and go to town on each other. In internet terms, this means I call you a poopyhead in no uncertain terms, and you fight back until one has emerged the victor. We then drink blood wine together and celebrate past battles.

It's basically a tradition.


Anyone who can adopt a conciliatory tone by (1) making a Star Trek analogy (2) to a prolonged internet argument (3) over the finer aspects of gearing choices (4) in a MMORPG is OK in my book, for all that's worth (read: nothing).

But now that the dust has settled, I had some questions I could use some help on:

- I don't often venture far from the cozy embrace of the maintankadin forums, but is there some lingering resentment against this community, particularly theck and his analyses, among those who generally frequent other forums, i.e. Tankspot or EJ? Even though I feel richer for the experience of having trudged through this monster thread, some of the early posts seemed like pointed attacks on individuals as opposed to the refinement of a general tanking theory.

- Will this discussion change anyone's thoughts on http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50341? That's certainly more armor than the Glyph and the bonus stacking stamina, though unreliable, only increases the armor's usefulness.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Trase » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:10 pm

In my opinion, you wouldn't use that trinket because of the stacking stamina bonus. You'd use it for the armor with the stamina being a "bonus". Assuming it drops, I was already planning on letting it see a lot of use.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:23 pm

JamesVZ wrote:
fuzzygeek wrote:Jamesvz obviously sees some point of trade-off between armor and stamina, as he uses 30 stam gems, instead of stam/agil. Why? Is the 20 armor (sans Kings) from the stam/agil gems insufficient to outweigh 15 stam? In his belt he has 2x 30 stam gems, instead of matching the socket bonus, which would be -6stam +20armor).


Well, yes. I'm not actually retarded, you know.

And definitely, if there were armor gems on let's say a red socket they'd see a lot of play in my gear.


I've never said you were actually retarded, and I apologize if my questions come across that way: these questions are not intended to be snarky -- I'd actually like to hear your reasoning. I'm trying to see where you draw the line between armor and stam, and why. At what point is choosing stam over armor not an actually retarded move, and at what point does it indicate someone is a window licker?

How much armor would a red gem have to give in order to be attractive?

If your rubric is strong enough that you feel compelled to spend no small amount of time advocating for your position on a hostile forum, I'd like to understand it more.
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