Remove Advertisements

Armor vs HP Math Help

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Kriskringle » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:54 am

Kihra wrote:I'd be curious to see the math that works out how much healing it would take though.


Should be incoming soon, I think. I'd post an answer I worked out, but I'm sure that Theck will be better able to write it clearly and without all the errors I've probably made, so I'd rather not clutter up the thread with ugly/wrong math.
Kriskringle - 80 - Duskwood
Greatfather Winter is a sham.
Kriskringle
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:05 pm

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Roots » Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:55 am

Lythac wrote:
Roots wrote:Including hots and tics and such in a tank death scenario sounds like it's going to boil down to a probabilities.

I thought the point of EH was to give a flat solid number for the worst case scenario and then reduce damage from there?


It is. And thats why EH is being partially discredited by some as they disagree that all most our deaths happen with zero heals and in the space of under a second.

When we include healing and look at probabilities it won't really be EH anymore.


This is where I'm going with this 'rethinking of EH'
We look at EH as a purely worst case scenario where zero RNG acts to help us, we meet that threshold, then we up everything else, right? Once we start including anything that is casted/is reactive/could fall off/etc we no longer have the definite "no RNG I still live" scenario
Image
User avatar
Roots
 
Posts: 320
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:59 pm

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:18 am

Kihra wrote:I'd be curious to see the math that works out how much healing it would take though.

That should be pretty easy.

EH = H(1+A/K)
d(EH) = 0 = dH(1+A/K) + H*dA/K


Setting those two terms equal (to indicate that they give exactly the same EH boost), and solving for dH gives

dH = H/(A+K)*dA

Just as we found in the past. Using 50k health and 30k armor as approximate values, that works out to 1.07 armor being equivalent to one health.

To convert that to stamina, you turn dH into 12.59*dS (for paladins, the value is different for warriors), for

dS = H/(12.59*(A+K))*dA

which using the same values gives us 11.7 armor to match 1 stamina for EH. It gets lower for higher H, and higher for higher A, as expected.

To factor healing in, we take the same approach as Hamlet. Pretend each point of non-overheal healing h received was actually a point of health. You'd have:
dH = (H+h)/(A+K)*dA

Now let's compare Glyph to Satrina's (non-heroic). 192 Stam is 2417 health. Glyph gives 1792 armor, which when multiplied by H/(A+K) is only 1921 health. The amount of healing needed is then:
h = (A+K)/dA*(dH-H*dA/(A+K)) = (A+K)*496/1792 = 12.9k

So if you received 12.9k in heals during the burst, they're equivalent. Any more and you're better off with the armor trinket, any less and the stamina trinket has an edge.

<edit> If you compare the Key to the Glyph, h works out to be 24.7k healing.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7735
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:46 am

At 24k I'm pretty certain that makes the key a bit better for me. You had to die twice there to get 30k, which brings up he question of AD, it's heal, and the fact that stamina makes the heal bigger. On one hand AD is going to allow more heals to land, but I don't think I've ever died when AD proced unless a wipe had been called.

Perhaps some sort of normalized hps value could be used, at which point we can consider time to death. That may have an unfair bias towards stamina on the biggest hitters though.

Apologies for any gross misspellings here, I'm posting from a mobile that likes to autocorrect our wow terms in odd ways.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Mulack » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:02 pm

Kihra wrote:It seems like what we're really talking about is HoTs. When my guild loses tanks, it's inevitably the result of a tank not receiving any direct heals during a certain period of time. If that period of time is large, we chalk it up to healer fail (e.g., a paladin let beacon fall off). If that period of time is small, then it's conceivably a burst scenario and the tank's problem.

Tanks do typically receive some healing from HoTs in our death scenarios, so it does seem reasonable to try to account for this healing in the model.

I'm not convinced that HoTs alone make a significant enough difference to really affect how we should gear. Right now according to EH, a trinket like Glyph of Indomitability lags significantly behind Corroded Skeleton Key. It would take quite a a bit of healing from HoTs to make up that difference.

I'd be curious to see the math that works out how much healing it would take though.

It's not just HoTs. Realistically at any given time you probably have 1-2 direct healers hitting the tank at the very bare minimum. Festergut you should probably have just about every single healer on the tank spamming him during the period where "worst case scenario" can happen (absent one healer who may have to move with a spore). So disregarding the healing entirely leads to faulty conclusions.

Separate point, but something people seem to forget quite a bit in all the theorycraft: mitigating a hit through stances/spells, resistances, and armor is always more valuable than just soaking it with lots of HP. Setting up equivalencies where you say, "I need to get hit for x before armor is worth more than y stamina" is faulty logic. By reducing the amount of damage you take, you can potentially eliminate the need for healers to spend as many GCDs on you, which is typically the limiting factor in healing received for most fights. Saving them GCDs allows them to handle things like movement (and this doesn't even need to comprise a full GCD), decurses, and healing the dps who either make mistakes or take unavoidable damage. Mana is effectively unlimited for most healers in a 5-6 minute fight these days, so in that regard, yes, stamina is king and you can probably get away with it. Even healer throughput is relatively irrelevant in a lot of fights over a 4 second window. We saw this on Brutallus and we see it again on Festergut. The way the math worked on Brut you only needed to survive 3/4 of the hits before every assigned healer had cycled through a heal on you (which could get you to full), and that cycle continued until stomp wore off. This is why we stacked avoidance, you could set up a compound probability equation and determine at what points you were relatively safe over that brief 4 attack window. I thought EH was also attempting to do this, but it seems to completely lose sight of the fact that you DO have hasted healers hitting you with holy lights and penance periodically. If I get hit 3 times in the space of 3-4 seconds without receiving a single heal other than a HoT, someone screwed up pretty badly (even with a tank swap, you have beacon heals, PoM, and probably a shield during that time).

To James point earlier in this thread there are very few, if any, unavoidable magical burst events or deadly bleed effects in WoTLK normal or heroic modes. Maybe we'll see them later in ICC, but by then badges are less of a precious commodity and purchasing the key trinket is less of an issue. There are MANY physical burst events that you can't deal with solely with cooldowns.

What people should be concerned about is surviving the fights like Festergut and Putricide. Both of those favor damage reduction (putricide especially since there's a lot of raid damage going out at the end of the fight, so limiting the amount of attention you need is extremely helpful). Fights like BQL also indirectly favor an armor approach because if you can limit the damage you take, it limits the healing the blood mirror tank requires. Reduce that enough and you could potentially drop down to a hybrid healer to fill in the gaps between direct heals (like a shadowpriest with VE and a ret paladin with DS) instead of relying on a pure healer for the dps groups.

I personally think that regardless of how the "math excluding healing and shield effects" shakes out, you want enough HP to soak unavoidable hits, and after that point you want to focus on reducing your healing load required. Healing load is something this echo chamber seems to have completely lost sight of in their concern about just surviving some oddball worst-case scenario (and that scenario is nothing like what we experience in game short of a wipe, so it's becoming math for math's sake and doesn't help anyone make better decisions). I'm not talking about avoidance here, I mean pure mitigation that affects every single hit you receive. I don't know how you can logically say the "math" is right when you see 5%+ mitigation differences in favor of 3-4k more hp. The only thing that makes a healer's life easier is reducing how much and how often you need to be healed. Adding more HP just means I get a buffer, it doesn't mean I don't have to heal you eventually. Sometimes that makes life easier, most of the time it does not. Arguing that overhealing is gobbled up by being a bigger meatshield is also erroneous logic.

Oh and while we're on the topic, I think completely disregarding the impact armor has on your block value is also a mistake. Armor effectively acts as a percentage scalar for it, and with something like holy shield or shieldblock you can count on it during burst intervals. Edit: I'll also freely admit that warriors are a special case here because we have critical block, which can lead to upwards of 7k damage reduction on a single attack.

In addition armor provides more of a benefit to PW:S effects, Valanyr (if you have one in the raid), and divine aegis. Are people not raiding with disc priests anymore?
Mulack
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:46 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Trase » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:21 pm

It's rather frustrating reading the thoughts people put forth as if one side is advocating stacking only stamina while the other side is advocating stacking only armor. The solitary argument is a comparison of one trinket to another holding all other gear, buffs and fight mechanics constant. Trading Glyph for one stamina trinket will not save any healer a single GCD [edit] during a time where you are in significant danger of death[/edit]. The damage reduced from that one trinket is not big enough to do that. Also, Warriors have the benefit of having their Shield Block ability push them into the territory of only receiving hits that are reduced by their Block Value. Paladins do not have the same benefit as our Holy Shield only increases our % chance to block by 30. In my armor-skewed kit with Holy Shield active, there is still a 15% chance that I will take a completely unblocked hit unless my Redoubt also happens to be active at the time. One other point, no one (unless they haven't been reading) has said that they are gearing as if a singular magic/bleed damage burst will kill them. They are taking into consideration magic/bleed damage in tandem with all other sources of damage from a boss happening in a definite instance of time. Do not confuse the two. You cannot just ignore all non-DR damage because it suits your argument and it is not necessarily faulty to gear for a situation in which you can be killed within a 2 - 4 second span of time just as it is not faulty to gear for reducing the average load on your healers assuming you can already survive a spike.

EDIT: Edited for clarity
Trase <Phoenix> - Greymane US
Trase
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:32 am

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby warden » Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:50 pm

I'm going to throw a couple ideas out, just food for thought for the sake of furthering the discussion. In this case, I'm not a progression tank on the level of Meloree or possibly some of our guests here, but here goes anyway. Hopefully some examples from my lesser-geared experience on current content might be applicable to the future experience of the cutting-edge progression members in future hardmodes.

For both examples below, I had about 49k buffed health and ~33k armor in mostly 245 gear (and a couple pieces of 251 and 232).

Mistakes happen: Are we considering these situations or aren't we? Example: Frostbolt damage on deathwhisper is assumed to be interrupted. What if one is missed? Are we incorperating this into the "worst case" burst scenerio, or simply writing off a tank death from this as someone failing to do their job and getting the tank killed? Granted, we don't know of the frost bolts will be interruptable in hardmode, or able to oneshot a tank in hardmode (although the two scenerios favor distinctly different gearing strategies). Case and point: I was tanking her on regular last night with a warrior co-tank who was wearing an avoidance-heavy set. Death and decay landed, and the fury warrior interrupting ran. A frostbolt proceeded to splatter my co-tank across the back wall. Stam stacking probably would have saved him in that particular (isolated) case. I would have survived the cast.

Whittle-down deaths: Again, I'm hoping my examples here might be projected to potential hardmode scenerios for you guys. I did suffer a whittle down death on at least 3 attempts on festergut last night. We dropped to 2 healers for him hoping to boost some lacking dps. Unfortunately, these two, for whatever reason, simply couldn't keep up with my damage intake by the 3rd inhale. Not being quite healed to full after each hit, I distinctly remember my health hitting 6k after the first hit, 4k after the second, and around 1k after the 3rd. In a purely physical damage situation like this, the discussion over the last couple pages makes me really want to try an armor trink for that fight and see if it helps my slight-undergeared healers cope better. Perhaps, had I been using it, I would have survived the hits, made it back to 0 inhales, and been fine. Lacking a log, I can't prove this (although I'm now dying to know).

While these are isolated examples (and I tried to provide one for pro-armor and one for pro-stam) I look forward to seeing the discussion as this thread evolves with both sides working together, as hopefully it will help us evolve our theoretical effective health model into one incorperating even more elements. Extra thanks to those posters that stepped into the middle ground in an effort to keep this (now) very productive thread moving in a positive direction.
Image

"Don't facepalm at me... Ret paladins don't facepalm each other. Its against the code!" -Anafielle
warden
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:17 pm

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:08 pm

Mulack wrote:Edit: I'll also freely admit that warriors are a special case here because we have critical block, which can lead to upwards of 7k damage reduction on a single attack.


Sissy. I'm blocking 9400 and change with a crit+shield block.
JamesVZ
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:38 am

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Mulack » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:15 pm

Trase wrote:It's rather frustrating reading the thoughts people put forth as if one side is advocating stacking only stamina while the other side is advocating stacking only armor. The solitary argument is a comparison of one trinket to another holding all other gear, buffs and fight mechanics constant. Trading Glyph for one stamina trinket will not save any healer a single GCD. The damage reduced from that one trinket is not big enough to do that. Also, Warriors have the benefit of having their Shield Block ability push them into the territory of only receiving hits that are reduced by their Block Value. Paladins do not have the same benefit as our Holy Shield only increases our % chance to block by 30. In my armor-skewed kit with Holy Shield active, there is still a 15% chance that I will take a completely unblocked hit unless my Redoubt also happens to be active at the time. One other point, no one (unless they haven't been reading) has said that they are gearing as if a singular magic/bleed damage burst will kill them. They are taking into consideration magic/bleed damage in tandem with all other sources of damage from a boss happening in a definite instance of time. Do not confuse the two. You cannot just ignore all non-DR damage because it suits your argument and it is not necessarily faulty to gear for a situation in which you can be killed within a 2 - 4 second span of time just as it is not faulty to gear for reducing the average load on your healers assuming you can already survive a spike.

Except that you are advocating stamina over armor because of the way the equation works out. Many of us think that's wrong and doesn't reflect reality, it ignores very key elements in tanking most fights this expansion. Just because you did a lot of math doesn't mean the assumptions are right, yet everyone clings to this dogmatically even when we present arguments that make the whole theory go pear-shaped.

Whether or not you take an unblocked hit is irrelevant. If you have a 15% probability of only taking those, then the compound probability of taking 3 consecutive unblocked/unavoided hits is incredibly low (0.33%). Basically what you're saying is that block doesn't matter because there's a 3 in 1000 chance of you taking 3 consecutive unblocked hits in 3 seconds where no heals land. That's not a worst-case scenario. That's an outlandish situation that will almost never come up and there's no good reason to exclude block from your assumptions because of it. All 6 of your healers are completely asleep at the switch *and* the stars align so you get screwed by RNG. Sounds like a good time for a b-rez or a wipe. It's not going to come up often enough in a raid night for you to worry about it (and even if it did, the better solution is to find out why your healers ignored you).

Gormok is probably the only boss where bleeds come into play (I honestly can't remember the last time before that). Maybe heroic Morrowgar during bonestorm will have bleeds (that you aren't required to take) or BQL will. Sindragosa will probably require some stamina stacking over armor. So swap your trinkets to a Heart of Iron on those, every other fight the glyph is going to be a very good option and you're better off buying the items that will impact the most fights for you, not the one that only affects some random one-off fight that you don't need to gear up for until later. No one is saying you shouldn't eventually get this stuff for your golfbag of tanking items, we're just saying that your purchase priority system is getting screwed up by faulty assumptions.

What I really have a problem with are people who equate armor to HP. That's just wrong. Glyph of indomitably is not worth 163 stamina so therefore the key is better because it has 65 more "effective" stamina. They're two different stats with very different mechanics and you should treat them as such.
Mulack
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:46 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:29 pm

Maluck, a few things. The concept of gearing to a certain amount of absorption and then try reducing damage is how EH theory should be applied.

There are 2 fights in ICC where magic damage is serious, darkwhisper including her adds if on he double caster side, and prince keleseth who does no physical damage at all.

It doesn't have to be dangerous, even though it is in those cases, it just has to contribute to your death to be meaningful.

Yes 5% mitigation is probably better than 3k health, but we are generally talking about 2.5k health for, just guessing, like 1% mitigation. That's why a crossover number is needed.

Pallys no longer block every hit or every hit on demand for a duration like with shield block.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9665
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Trase » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:32 pm

Actually, "I" am not advocating stamina stacking. I was a bystander to this argument until it became clear that more and more individuals insist on entering the discussion as if there has to be a definitive right or wrong answer. There is not. One gearing strategy will not work for every fight in the game, nor should we expect that it will. The best anyone can and should try to do is find a methodology for determining what will work best for a fight on a fight by fight basis. Do not confuse my stance. I stack armor when it is more beneficial and I stack stamina when it is more beneficial. (NOTE: The gear I logged out in is not what I tank with at all times.)

To your point about Block Value's affect on a physical hit. It is a scalar that will reduce the hit taken by the person with ~1800 more armor the same as it will reduce the hit taken by the person with 287 (after modifiers) more stamina. In either case, against physical damage that can be mitigated by armor, if you're worried about being taken down within a very short and finite period of time, the damage saved by having more armor will result in roughly the same final value of health as the individual who had more initial health (again, holding all other factors of gear, buffs and encounter mechanics constant). If you're concerned more with a longer track to a death event, then armor will benefit you more over the long haul. My basic stance is that you cannot ignore one or the other. To do so would be a fallacy, and for most of the experienced tanks here, ignoring either is not something we do.
Trase <Phoenix> - Greymane US
Trase
 
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:32 am

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Kihra » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:58 pm

Mulack wrote:I personally think that regardless of how the "math excluding healing and shield effects" shakes out, you want enough HP to soak unavoidable hits, and after that point you want to focus on reducing your healing load required.


I think everyone here agrees with this statement. :)

It's a question of how you apply EH. We're all hopefully smart enough not to just blindly apply it. You obviously tailor your gear choices to the encounters. For physical damage, armor is superior to stamina in equivalent amounts. Healing strengthens the value of armor relative to stamina as well.

I think burst scenarios where you can't have a cooldown ready are in practice extremely rare. I think there's been a bit too much focus on 3-stack Festergut and P3 Putricide where you're clearly just supposed to use cooldowns to survive. The more interesting burst scenarios are ones like Icehowl, where you couldn't guarantee a cooldown, took unavoidable damage, and it all happened in a very very small time window. Those are the burst scenarios you need sufficient EH to survive. After that, reducing healing load is great.

The only reasons I typically die in progression content (assuming we're not wiping already) are because (a) I should have had a cooldown, (b) My healers screwed up, or (c) I screwed up (oops Big Ooze on Rotface).

This is why I'm not a fan of "whittling down" models, because these boil down to not enough healer throughput to compensate for the damage (in which case it would have to be so high that a cooldown was required), or healers simply not casting enough heals (in which case the healers are just screwing up and it's not the tank's fault).
Kihra
 
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:04 pm

bashef wrote:The class he plays is pretty much irrelevant, barring the slightly different stamina scaling. We're talking universal tank mechanics; sure, the equivalency between stamina and armour will be slightly different across classes due to scaling, but the fundamental issue is how to assess this.

I disagree that class is pretty much irrelevant. We have limited choices to make for gearing options, so careful choices are required, particularly at the stage in a new expansion where you do not have all the pieces from that expansion that you can swap in and out for every circumstance.

We have the combination of seeing new content where we don't know exactly what to expect, and a limited budget to accumulate resources to aid us in that new content.

The choices we make now are extremely important. They get less and less important as everyone accumulates gear, until eventually we out-gear the content.

But for now, each badge we spend must be spent on things that will help us survive encounters. "bang for the buck" is very important - if we get more EH from a stam trinket than we do from an armour trinket, but another class might get more EH from armour, then gear choice will be different to theirs. At this stage, those differences are amplified in importance.
Retired. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1980
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:15 pm

Mulack wrote:Except that you are advocating stamina over armor because of the way the equation works out. Many of us think that's wrong and doesn't reflect reality, it ignores very key elements in tanking most fights this expansion. Just because you did a lot of math doesn't mean the assumptions are right, yet everyone clings to this dogmatically even when we present arguments that make the whole theory go pear-shaped.

....

What I really have a problem with are people who equate armor to HP. That's just wrong. Glyph of indomitably is not worth 163 stamina so therefore the key is better because it has 65 more "effective" stamina. They're two different stats with very different mechanics and you should treat them as such.

I think this sums it up pretty well. EH is a powerful metric, but it's got its limits in practice. I can use the derivation to determine whether trinket A gives more effective health than trinket B in a given scenario, but it won't hold true for all scenarios if one's an armor trinket and one's a stamina trinket, because the mechanics of each are different.

In particular, it skews heavily one way (towards armor) if you're receiving regular healing, and it skews heavily the other way if you're taking magical burst.

I'm as guilty as anyone of making the "armor to stamina" comparisons. But it's clear that those are so variable between different death scenarios that they're not very useful, even for raw physical damage. That's not a failure of the definition of effective health, but it's definitely a failure (on my part) to apply it properly.

Mulack wrote:Gormok is probably the only boss where bleeds come into play (I honestly can't remember the last time before that). Maybe heroic Morrowgar during bonestorm will have bleeds (that you aren't required to take) or BQL will. Sindragosa will probably require some stamina stacking over armor. So swap your trinkets to a Heart of Iron on those, every other fight the glyph is going to be a very good option and you're better off buying the items that will impact the most fights for you, not the one that only affects some random one-off fight that you don't need to gear up for until later. No one is saying you shouldn't eventually get this stuff for your golfbag of tanking items, we're just saying that your purchase priority system is getting screwed up by faulty assumptions.

Again, I agree. However, my choice wasn't based on maximizing EH or burst survivability, as I pointed out earlier. Which is another reason I've never advocated that anyone else purchase the stamina trinket before the armor chest - that was a strawman brought up in the earlier, uglier parts of this thread.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7735
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:19 pm

Koatanga wrote:But for now, each badge we spend must be spent on things that will help us survive encounters. "bang for the buck" is very important - if we get more EH from a stam trinket than we do from an armour trinket, but another class might get more EH from armour, then gear choice will be different to theirs. At this stage, those differences are amplified in importance.

I actually disagree. Most of us are comfortably passing the tank checks, regardless of what order we purchased things in. For us, bang for the buck will matter when hard modes come out and (presumably) offer real tank checks and we can really put those armor options to use.

We're all going to have the same chest, cloak, gloves, and belt by that point anyway, whether we're gearing for armor or EH.

It does matter for players who aren't already over-gearing the normal-mode content though.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
MATLAB 5.x, Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 5.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 7735
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest