Prot paladin gameplay... not fun?

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Prot paladin gameplay... not fun?

Postby Kaen » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:23 pm

DISCLAIMER: I tried posting this on the WoW general chat forums, but most of the replies were something like: "nice ninja post of 'paladin tanking is OP and easy' and that is certainly NOT what I mean with this post. Please DO take it at face value, I mean exactly what it literally says and nothing more.

First, let me give a little background information. I started this game as a paladin and played for a very long time. I was holy, of course, because back then that really was the only thing paladins could do well -- support/heal. I raided all the way through Naxx, even killing Kel'Thuzad. I had Maladath, Styleen's, and even Gluth's Missing Collar. ^_^ I collected these items to begin tanking when TBC launched because I knew paladins were getting a buff to protection.

TBC came, it turned out that paladins, at the time, pretty much sucked at tanking anything other than normal 5-mans and Karazhan trash, with a "niche" raid boss here and there. It was then that I rolled this warrior, as my new main, because I knew I wanted to tank. Now, with that out of the way:

I played my paladin again tonight, tanking for the first time in probably nine months on him. And I was sorely disappointed in the sheer lack of solid, engaging gameplay. While it is FUN to tank 10 mobs at once, and sustain 1500 tps in blue gear for a while when you pop wings, it is NOT FUN to actually _play_ a protection paladin. Coming from playing a raiding warrior since this summer, tanking for hours and hours, pretty much daily, it is very hard for me to go from him to playing a prot paladin.

Simply put, there is not enough button pressing, and not even skill juggling. I am not saying that just mashing buttons as fast as you can is good gameplay, but I am saying that seal, judge, consecrate, holy shield.... wait... wait... wait... is not very fun. I find myself sitting there with nothing to do probably half the time. There are a few reasons for this, but here are two big ones, I think, that also happen to be pretty related.

One -- there's no "spammable" threat button. While warriors (for instance) can, for the most part, spam devastate on just about every GCD, and heroic strike as often as possible, and even throw up shield block, the most spamming you do as a paladin tank is SoR, judge, SoR. ....wait.... And two -- there are no cooldowns to juggle against one another to make it interesting to choose what you should do to maximize threat. There are just not enough options, and it's not mentally stimulating to play!

I realize that giving paladins a spammable threat generation key like sunder/devastate/etc could throw the balance of "best tank" in their favor, potentially, but they need something. I was considering moving back to my paladin because I missed him and thought it was a shame that my original character was being shelved, but honestly, as a tank, it's just not fun or engaging enough to do it. I guess another way to say it would be that paladins need more buttons to be pushing, more frequently, that make a meaningful contribution to threat generation, your survival, or both. As it is, there's just not enough to do, and the fun factor falls flat.

I'm not asking for a reason to switch back to him; but there are some significant fun-factor issues, at least when compared to a warrior, that I am definitely having.

Can anyone else relate to this, or have anything to add? Am I missing something?
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Postby Dorvan » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:33 pm

Personally, one of the reasons I love playing my Prot Paladin is that the difficultly and skill usually doesn't involve my ability to quickly press keys. I'm much more at home with turn-based RPGs than first-person shooters, and Tankadins fit in really well with that style. Rather than testing your ability to quickly press buttons, playing a prot pally well is a check on your ability to deeply understand your character's mechanics and to prepare yourself well for going into battle. Once in battle, the threat sequence is pretty simple, allowing you to focus on what's going on the the batttle around you and make adjustments and skill substitutions as the situation demands.

If you like having a spammable button, then you'll probably like Warrior tanking, but please don't foist that on Paladin tanks. There are those of us that like it precisely because it *doesn't* play like Warrior tanking, and the current situation allows for both styles: just choose your tanking class accordingly.

Condensed version: Warrior tanking is tactical, Paladin tanking is strategic
Last edited by Dorvan on Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Regis » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:35 pm

The official WoW forums suck, think we can all agree on that.

It's as you say, paladins dont require as much button smashing as warriors (had a warrior tanking up to AQ40 pre TBC) and that we got some dead time in between the cooldowns. But I dont see that as a bad thing. When I tanked with my warrior all I did was smash button in a affective order as possible, and fitting that Last Stand, healthstone or even be aware of my surroundings was hard.
With paladins I find myself with plenty of time to cleanse myself and melee (which healers will thank you for on fights like Prince), chunk a pot without missing any cooldowns, or just check the mana/position/status of the raid (being a officer I want to stay on top of things). All that while keeping a high TPS.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:58 am

Dorvan wrote:Condensed version: Warrior tanking is tactical, Paladin tanking is strategic

That's quite nice.

And the problem with the entire basis of the OP's argument is that he's talking about what he doesn't find fun. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

Personally I prefer raidleading on my paladin precisely because I can actually lead the raid and not have to worry about mashing a different key every half second. Our warrior MT can barely talk on vent when things are getting hairy.

Raidleading is the new minigame.
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Postby M'hael » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:10 am

i agree with dorvan(i think he's saying this) that pally tanking is all about what you do before the fight and less so what you do during the fight. its knowing your class, knowing how to be uncrushable (used to have to juggle stam too, not so much) knowing when you can just cruise and knowing when you really have to put out the effort. Also i think your referring to 5 mans. If i could make a macro that did as, consecrate, hs, sow, judgement, sow, hs, consecrate, (maybe a few more of the last 3) then i could just press it and tank super easy in 5 mans (i use sow cause i hate drinking all the time) but when doing raids its different. Like today when i was tanking void reaver, i run in judge wisdom auto attack for about 10 seconds then i go balls out and do my best to make warriors tps look like they have salv on. then it becomes a juggle between which spells can i spam non stop and which should i lay off so im not completely oom before my pots are up. personally i loved tanking void reaver because it is more engaging than 5 mans. im so bored in 5 mans now i can barely make myself do them. i think if you just get further in and maybe mt some raid stuff you would be more engaged.
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Re: Prot paladin gameplay... not fun?

Postby Belarkan » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:17 am

Kaen wrote:Am I missing something?

Sure you're missing something.
It's just that you match warrior tanking style.
On my side, I like to scratch my head on thinking what gear pieces I will go on for this or that boss while remaining crush immune. Would I go for threat ? block value ? maybe stamina ?

Warriors don't have to care about crush immunity while gearing. Paladins do.
Paladins also have to take some care about the GCD and spell orders while warriors can destroy their keyboard spamming skills.
Also I like to think twice before taunting a mob because our cooldown is 15 sec which means if we miss it, it's most probably a wipe.

If you like the way warriors tank better than paladin do, go for it and enjoy. It's a game.

Hopefully, Blizzard managed to have 3 tanking classes different but (to me) none being so much better than the other to be an issue.
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Postby Exodius » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:45 am

I do indeed love the fact that you can spend half an hour to two hours looking at different gear swaps to accomodate one new item. I haven't got a 70 warrior in my pocket, but I just love juggling the stats and prove how I can do so much with so little health. :D
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Postby Passionario » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:34 am

"Amateurs think about tactics. Professionals think about logistics."
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Postby Dapaladin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:37 am

I had a warrior tank for quite awhile and when i amade the switch, yes it less demanding of you but its different and i like it. I went from feral druid to prot warrior to prot pally. Tanking with a mana bar and being able to do the things the other 2 tanking classes can not without working as hard just seems more fun to me. Warriors and Druids cant frontload as much as pallies and cant tank as many mobs as pallies can. With 2.3 im finding it hard to see reasons to have other tanks... Mind you i have barely touched the 25 man, but ive heard pallies cant tank quite a few bosses in BT and Hyjal. Well i dunno about CANT but its more desirable to have a warrior.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:40 am

Dorvan wrote:If you like having a spammable button, then you'll probably like Warrior tanking, but please don't foist that on Paladin tanks. There are those of us that like it precisely because it *doesn't* play like Warrior tanking, and the current situation allows for both styles: just choose your tanking class accordingly.

Condensed version: Warrior tanking is tactical, Paladin tanking is strategic
To each it's own. You just likes the warrior gameplay more than the paladin gameplay =)
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Postby Arthran » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:02 am

Passionario wrote:"Amateurs think about tactics. Professionals think about logistics."

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Postby Noradin » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:23 am

Dorvan wrote:Condensed version: Warrior tanking is tactical, Paladin tanking is strategic

Thats why I prefere my prot-paladin over my warrior, but I'd like to have a reactive ability like revenge, because defending should be something reactive. A Tankadin's gameplay is purely active/passive, actions of the mob tanked don't matter at all, I'd like to see this changed a bit to get a more defensive feeling.

(Our only "reactive" ability is out taunt -.-)
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Postby Boudi » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:42 am

Noradin wrote:actions of the mob tanked don't matter at all

as far as i know the abillities of a mob heavely depends on how well we're able to tank something.

As example: When we fight spellcasters Holy Shield is near useless(as in: only usefull when the mob cannot cast his spells and switches to a melee attack).
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Postby Kaen » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:54 am

Help me understand. How is waiting through long cooldowns and having nothing to do after putting up HS, seal,judge,seal, with a taunt now and then "strategic?"

What are you guys doing when you're tanking, in your mind? What is your thought process?

And finally, on the thing about gear selection, I find that a lot of fun, too, on my warrior. I understand that paladins have to work extra hard to become uncrushable; believe me, when I was tanking as a paladin at the beginning of TBC, I worked very hard to try to overcome that obstacle. But... that has nothing to do with gameplay, which is the topic at hand.
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Postby Kaen » Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:00 am

Passionario wrote:"Amateurs think about tactics. Professionals think about logistics."

I want to respond directly to this. Because a couple of people in this thread equated "tactics" with the warrior tanking gameplay, I'm assuming this is what you're referring to. Are warrior tanks amateur because they have more buttons to press? Are paladin tanks "professionals" because they have fewer buttons to press? Related to my question in the above post, help me understand here, what is so strategic in paladin tanking? Be honest; I mean this with no malice whatsoever, but is that just an "excuse" to cover up embarrassment because of lack of things to actually think about or do while tanking as a paladin?

I mean, I'd personally love to play a class that actually required a good deal of strategy in a PvE role, in relation to tanking. Not that warriors don't require strategy, but if paladins seriously require harder or smarter thinking somehow, that might make it worth playing again. Halp! Needs more understanding.

By the way, from the poster from zzq on Mal'Ganis -- hi, this is Kaen from Validus.
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