Armor vs HP Math Help

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:15 pm

I didn't say that stamina reduces damage, I said it increases EH, just as armor does. I don't care why you have your attitude, people are allowed to be wrong. The point is when you have information that indicates they are incorrect, you post it and do so respectfully. Frankly, I'm not convinced that YOU aren't retarded yet either.

I mean you just said trading 1800 armor for 2300 health might be ok, in the same post where you claim the skeleton key is a piece of shit. That's a rather significant contradiction of yourself. Why don't you post some data on how "we" are using EH theory incorrectly, or data on the armor trinket vs the stam trinket?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:23 pm

JamesVZ wrote:I'm actually convinced you do a lot of theorycrafting because you like to see your own numbers on the internet. Allow me to elaborate...

I probably deserved this for my last comment. Let me apologize and clarify. I do theorycrafting because often the results surprise us and force us to re-evaluate our intuition. The statement you made about Armor being better than anything is demonstrably false because we've seen fights that contain large amounts of magical or bleed burst. It was a wandering generalization that has no place in a seroius discussion, because it lacks any sort of proof. That's why I pointed out a number of fights in which there was a potential death scenario that contains magical or bleed damage.

Now, piece by piece:
JamesVZ wrote:Out of all of those fights, the only one you listed that you might have any sort of leg to stand on is Malygos, where he could unleash a massive amount of magic damage followed by a fairly large melee swing in a very short period of time. There is a fight where magic damage contributed significantly to tank death. If you were a jewelcrafter back then, yes, it made sense to use 2x stamina trinkets instead of possibly something like an avoidance trinket or the armor trinket. It made a lot of sense.


So "There are no tank killing spikes caused by magic or bleed damage" is demonstrably wrong then, since one obviously exists.

JamesVZ wrote:Sarth's breath was definitely his most lethal aspect, in fact it was so lethal that only two classes could tank him due to basic design mechanics and cooldowns. One of them was a Feral Druid, who had so much effective health in 3.0 that just now, JUST NOW, the rest of us are finally starting to reach the same EH. The other had cooldowns falling out of their ass.

Except that many paladin tanks, including quite a few right here on our forums, did tank Sarth in 3.0.x all by their little old selves. And they did it by EH stacking and smart use of cooldowns (both their own and external). So I ask again, how does that support the assertion that Armor is the end-all be-all of tanking?

JamesVZ wrote:Every other fight you listed falls into one of two categories, magic damage that you needed cooldowns to survive, or a complete non-pressuring tank fight.

I disagree. Depending on what stage you arrived at that fight, every single one of them had the potential to kill a tank with some combination of physical damage and magical damage. You can survive a Plasma Blast without a cooldown - in fact, you could do it in Ulduar level gear. I've done it myself, in 226 gear, when Mimiron was relevant. Hodir still killed players when he was relevant, and doesn't require cooldowns. For a more recent example, Gormok was certainly capable of killing tanks with a combination of physical and bleed damage, and did not at all require cooldowns to survive.

JamesVZ wrote:Ignis? Really? When you're walking into a zone, asking yourself how best to gear for a trivial fight is probably not a good idea. In fact, it's a really bad idea.

Interestingly, they nerfed Ignis shortly after Ulduar was released because of his massive melee attacks. So yes, in fact, tanks did gear for Ignis for a week or two, because it was progression content at the time. Progression content where you were very liable to take a combination of large melee hits and fire damage.

JamesVZ wrote:No one gives a shit that you are the most survivable paladin against LADY DEATHWHISPER.

Until your rogue dies and you have to take a Frostbolt to the face, that is. Surviving that frostbolt is important to some tanks, because a server-first might be riding on it (in heroic mode, anyway).

In any event, the point was not that Deathwhisper is a serious tank check. But it is a fight that contains a lot of magical damage, and a tank that gears for EH with a focus on stamina has a better chance of surviving a stray un-interrupted Frostbolt than one that stacks armor.

In fact, consider that by stacking armor, you're gearing for taking the adds, which are the most trivial part of the fight. So doing so is at odds even with your own logic.

JamesVZ wrote:They care that you can take a beating from Festergut and keep on chugging.

And you are prevented from gearing intelligently for each encounter individually because...?

JamesVZ wrote:So yes, the whole line of theorycrafting regarding TOTAL EFFECTIVE HEALTH is about as asinine as theorycrafting the color of the sky. It's ultimately irrelevant, and you can mark my words on that. I know I'm right in this because I've been doing this for a very long time, much longer than you have.

Satrina apparently disagrees with you, since he finds it a worthwhile metric. The fact that Malygos and Sartharion even exist should be an indicator that it's not useless to theorycraft about magical damage. I'm sorry you think my work is "asanine," but I also think it's asanine to infer that because you've been doing it for a "very long time" that somehow makes you right, when the numbers clearly say otherwise. So I guess we're even?

JamesVZ wrote:A quick glance at our armories suggest much better, too.

How so, exactly? I'm geared properly according to the latest EH tanking philosophy, which is pretty well-agreed upon both here and at tankspot, and is working in practice for quite a few high-end paladin tanks on these forums (c.f. Meloree, Wrathy, Khira, Aubade, Wingman, and so on).

JamesVZ wrote:My assertions have real world data and various logs to back them up. Don't believe me? Pull up a log of your own. I did not too long ago in the warrior thread on the EJ forums here. The same basic concept applies to Ulduar and Naxx as well. In 99% of all cases all the time, the damage that you can REDUCE is the damage you should focus on. The difference in 4k hp is trivial for the amount of armor you give up to get it in every single case.

99%? Where did you pull that statistic from? I'd love to see the data set, since Meloree, Wrathy, and others have posted tank-death parses from ToGC during 3.2 that showed appreciable amounts of magical or bleed damage.

As an aside, posting at EJ does not make you an expert on anything. This is clear from the post you linked, since it shows you don't seem to understand the concept of "tank burst" or "tank death scenario":
JamesVZ wrote:Northrend Beasts the vast majority of your damage taken is going to be melee, whether from Gormok's Impale or an enraged Dreadscale, or Icehowl. Going over my log roughly 3% of my damage taken was from Burning Bile, and it ticked for a little less than a couple thousand a tick. Molten Spew came in at less than 2% of my damage taken, 8 ticks for 3k each. The only magic ability with any amount of burst on it was Burning Bite, which is the application of the fire debuff, it hit for roughly 15k which is a drop in the bucket comparatively.

Fel Lightning didn't hit me once in Jaraxxus, and Fel Inferno and Fel Streak combined did roughly 7% of the total damage done to me, the highest tick of either being a mere 4k hp. The largest source of magic damage done to me on this latest log was actually Fel Fireball, which can be interrupted if you don't really care about your rage/threat generation here. Jaraxxus is not a fight I would say that pressures the tank in any sense of the word.

There are so many things wrong with these two paragraphs:
  1. Looking at the percentage of total damage taken isn't the correct way to assess this. A tank death scenario is a 4-5 second window during which you take enough damage to die, and that is not reflected by the damage breakdown over an entire fight. The fact that Molten spew only accounts for 2% of your overall damage intake is irrelevant if you die from Molten Spew + Impale DoT tick. The tank death was ~50% magical in that case, not 2%. It's also worth noting that Spew+Impale DoT + Burning Bile tick + random melee is a very, very common death scenario for Northrend Beasts, and one that involves almost zero damage that can be mitigated by armor.
  2. Gormok's Impale may be physical, but the DoT portion is a bleed and isn't affected by armor. Most tank-death scenarios involve Impale+Melee+DoT Tick, making bleed damage a significant portion of a valid death scenario.
  3. The fact that Fel Lightning didn't hit you is irrelevant. It is the only serous threat to the tank in that fight, and makes up a considerable portion of the damage in that scenario. Discounting it because it didn't happen to you doesn't prove any point other than that you don't know what you're talking about.

JamesVZ wrote:I'm not saying Stamina is necessarily bad to gear for. Far from it. I am saying that buying the Stamina Badge trinket for the theoretical MAGIC DAMAGE fight is nonsensical and damaging to your raid.

You're not buying it for the magical damage fight. You're buying it for the fights that it gives you more EH than an armor trinket, which means any fight with 20% or more magical damage in a tank burst. That's possible on a good portion of Icecrown fights, making it a very well-rounded trinket.


I'm sorry for the tone of this post, I'm usually very civil. But if you're going to come in here and make baseless assertions and then insult my work, I'm not particularly concerned with your feelings.

I'm willing to keep it civil and meet you on an even level of respect for the rest of the thread if you want to have a serious discussion about the relative merits of armor and stamina. But if you just want to come in here and insult me for doing math, then I'm not going to bother to return to this thread.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:26 pm

Fridmarr wrote:I mean you just said trading 1800 armor for 2300 health might be ok, in the same post where you claim the skeleton key is a piece of shit.


Eh, I'm not sure I ever said that. I said that on a per fight basis that might be your option. It's never really OK. At any point where it's OK, you're on a fight that it doesn't matter. Stacking HP for Twin Valks? I could do that fight naked wielding a hot dog. Stacking HP for Festergut? Good luck tanking his 3 stack damage!

The difference here is if you browse pretty much any armory for any 5+ year tank, they're all stacking armor. In fact, they just buffed the tier pieces cause no tank in their right mind would use them over the armor pieces. I don't really have to prove anything. The part of the community that's in the know and tackling top end content before everyone else in the world is stacking armor. The rest of you are not. Figure out why.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:35 pm

JamesVZ wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:I mean you just said trading 1800 armor for 2300 health might be ok, in the same post where you claim the skeleton key is a piece of shit.


Eh, I'm not sure I ever said that. I said that on a per fight basis that might be your option. It's never really OK. At any point where it's OK, you're on a fight that it doesn't matter. Stacking HP for Twin Valks? I could do that fight naked wielding a hot dog. Stacking HP for Festergut? Good luck tanking his 3 stack damage!

The difference here is if you browse pretty much any armory for any 5+ year tank, they're all stacking armor. In fact, they just buffed the tier pieces cause no tank in their right mind would use them over the armor pieces. I don't really have to prove anything. The part of the community that's in the know and tackling top end content before everyone else in the world is stacking armor. The rest of you are not. Figure out why.

I'm not sure what a tank that has 5+ years of exp tanking has to do with anything, and it certainly isn't useful for determining what the best course of action is for gearing. I haven't had any problems surviving 3 stack festergut yet, and I'm current wearing 2 stamina trinkets (not that I have the badges for the armor one anyhow) and my armor is likely a little on the low side because I haven't gotten much T10 gear yet, as I've haven't been able to be online at all outside of raiding and have almost no badges.

The people here, myself included are generally pretty open to change when the data presents itself appropriately. Personally I love armor, but generally I'd say that always stacking one stat over another is completely stupid without values being involved. Should I give up 5k health for 200 armor? What's the crossover point and what's the model for arriving at that value?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby kanst » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:36 pm

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... =Grafarion

I am too lazy to look for multiple samples, so here is a warrior tank from VODKA, does he wear bonus armor, sure its awesome. Does he wear it completely eschewing better items? No.

If armor was the end all be all and all good tanks knew it id expect him to have Cataclymsic Chest Guard, the Badge Back, and Badge Gloves. But alas he doesnt, why?, Id guess because when he looked at the items he decided that hed be a better balanced tank wearing some tier pieces.

Is armor good? Hell yeah, if you have have armor over avoidance or threat stats, its often the best choice. But saying armor is the only way to gear doesnt make sense. If that was the case why arent you wearing agi gems?

Edit : My bad hes in vodka I was looking at 2 tanks and wrote the wrong guild
Last edited by kanst on Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:37 pm

JamesVZ wrote:The difference here is if you browse pretty much any armory for any 5+ year tank, they're all stacking armor. In fact, they just buffed the tier pieces cause no tank in their right mind would use them over the armor pieces.

Not really a fair comparison, since the armor pieces in T10 are far ahead of the tier pieces in effective health (and stamina at the 264 level). In fact, that doesn't really prove your point at all, since TEH would support them as excellent items on most Icecrown fights.

JamesVZ wrote:I don't really have to prove anything. The part of the community that's in the know and tackling top end content before everyone else in the world is stacking armor. The rest of you are not. Figure out why.

That's a pretty harsh cop-out. I'd take it more seriously if you weren't US 124, World 358. Our own Aubade is US 34, World 61 and he seems to follow TEH philosophy (I mean, he has dual stamina trinkets.

So by your reasoning, since he's ranked higher than you, he must clearly know better, right?

<edit> Just so this isn't misconstrued, that last part was sarcasm intended to point out that the "we're clearing bosses and you're not" argument is complete and utter bullshit.
Last edited by theckhd on Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:40 pm

And before you use this against me too, I love armor. Armor is awesome. I'd stack armor on gear instead of avoidance in most cases. But it's not as portable as stamina and not as universal as stamina. I'd certainly use items with higher armor over items with higher stamina given the right trade-off and the right fight. But the fact that a stamina trinket works for every fight, while an armor trinket works for most fights makes it obviously which one is better for general use, given the relative amounts we're talking about.


Also note that paladins scale better with stamina than warriors, so while you may find that Armor is great for you, it's going to be slightly worse for a paladin than a warrior.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Darkside » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:41 pm

kanst wrote:http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alterac+Mountains&cn=Grafarion

I am too lazy to look for multiple samples, so here is a warrior tank from Premo, does he wear bonus armor, sure its awesome. Does he wear it completely eschewing better items? No.

If armor was the end all be all and all good tanks knew it id expect him to have Cataclymsic Chest Guard, the Badge Back, and Badge Gloves. But alas he doesnt, why?, Id guess because when he looked at the items he decided that hed be a better balanced tank wearing some tier pieces.

Is armor good? Hell yeah, if you have have armor over avoidance or threat stats, its often the best choice. But saying armor is the only way to gear doesnt make sense. If that was the case why arent you wearing agi gems?


That person is in vodka, not premo.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... jin&cn=Xav
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:41 pm

kanst wrote:http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alterac+Mountains&cn=Grafarion

I am too lazy to look for multiple samples, so here is a warrior tank from Premo, does he wear bonus armor, sure its awesome. Does he wear it completely eschewing better items? No.


That tank is in vodka, and he's currently wearing 60 badges worth of items. Ask him what he bought with the rest of his badges, I'm pretty sure one of them isn't Corroded Skeleton Key.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:45 pm

JamesVZ wrote:That tank is in vodka, and he's currently wearing 60 badges worth of items. Ask him what he bought with the rest of his badges, I'm pretty sure one of them isn't Corroded Skeleton Key.

Yeah, he bought the belt. Which is exactly what I bought first as well.

If I had a 258 Satrinas, I wouldn't have bought the key either. But I didn't, so I did, because it was the biggest EH boost at the time.


All of this argument about "killing bosses" is sorta stupid for normal modes anyway. Tank death isn't really a serious danger in most of the normal-mode encounters, so it's hard to infer from people's armories what they think is "best gearing practices." Stacking armor to reduce damage intake is a perfectly logical strategy if you're well over the EH thresholds for the fights, which will be the case for any top-end tank with full 258 gear going into ICC.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby kanst » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:48 pm

Here is my question for you, in a hypothetical sense if there was a piece of gear with the exact same threat, and avoidance stats but it had 500 less armor, how much more stamina would it have to have for you to switch. What is the equivalency your considering?

Is 500 Stamina worht 1000 health to you? 2000 health? Infinity health, youd never drop down 500 armor?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:51 pm

kanst wrote:Here is my question for you, in a hypothetical sense if there was a piece of gear with the exact same threat, and avoidance stats but it had 500 less armor, how much more stamina would it have to have for you to switch. What is the equivalency your considering?

Is 500 Stamina worht 1000 health to you? 2000 health? Infinity health, youd never drop down 500 armor?

Is that for me or for James? Because I have an answer (based on math, of course) but I can wait to post it if you wanted his unbiased opinion.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby bldavis » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:53 pm

I, for one, would like to see his answer.
I am intrigued now.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:00 pm

JamesVZ wrote:That tank is in vodka, and he's currently wearing 60 badges worth of items. Ask him what he bought with the rest of his badges, I'm pretty sure one of them isn't Corroded Skeleton Key.

Ok, so for giggles I went to wowprogress ( I have no clue how accurate that place is ) and grabbed the next three guilds and looked at their tanks, ALL of them had either a skeleton key or double stamina trinkets (double satrinas).

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... cn=Darklac
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... cn=Absalom
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... ul&cn=Quoo

NOTE: Absalom has a key, you'll have to check wow-heroes to see that he spent badges on it. His armory has him wearing an avoidance trinket. (OH NOES HE'S A BAD!!?!?!?!?!)

What's my point, well nothing this information is basically useless, but so is the tank in Vodka. Again, the merits of armor vs stamina should be quite quantifiable. I'd love to see the data you have on that.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:00 pm

I don't argue theoretical situations, I gear for real world scenarios.
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