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Agility and Dodge in ICC

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Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:02 am

Many people have been asking me to update my Agility v. Dodge comparison for Icecrown, and this time around I'd like to include the other classes so that we have meaningful results for all 4 tanks. The code for this simulation can be found here:
calc_dodge_v_agil.m.

I'm nowhere near the "optimum" gear load-out right now, but for the sake of argument we'll again use my current armory to pull stats from.

28,910 armor unbuffed
869 Defense Rating
780 Dodge Rating (30.39%)
204 Parry Rating (19.61%)
155 Agility.


I'll get 230 agi from raid buffs (SoE totem, MotW). Raid-buffed my agility should be 423 after kings (382*1.1).
I'll also get 1807 armor from Improved Devotion aura, 230*1.1*2=506 armor from the agility buffs, and 152*0.1*2=30 armor from the 15 agility I get from the interaction of Kings and my base agiility. That leaves me with a total of 31,254 armor raid buffed.

Using avoid_dr.m, which calculates avoidance after diminishing returns, this gives me the following raid-buffed avoidance:
Dodge: 23.0489%
Parry: 9.6100%
Miss: 5.0430%
Total: 37.7019%

Using avoid_dr.m again, I'll calculate my avoidance with 10 additional dodge rating, without changing the other inputs. This simulates the amount of dodge you get from a 10 dodge rating gem.
  • Dodge % goes up to 23.1747, an increase of 0.1258%.
After kings, 10 agility becomes 11 agility. I'll calculate my avoidance again, but this time adding 11 agility rather than 10 dodge:
  • Dodge % goes up to 23.1535, an increase of 0.1046%.
  • We also gain 22 armor.
  • That 11 agility also gives us crit, at the rate of 1% crit for 52.0833 agility, for a total of 0.2112% crit (equivalent to 9.6954 points of crit rating).


So the relevant conversions we want are:
10 Dodge Rating = 0.1258% Dodge
10 Agility = 0.1046% Dodge, 22 Armor, and 0.2112% crit



To calculate incoming damage, first we have to add in sources that aren't subject to DR, which is 10% dodge, 10% parry, and 5% miss. Thus we end up with our overall base avoidance values:
Dodge: 33.0489%
Parry: 19.6100%
Miss: 10.0430%
Total: 62.7019%

Chill of the Throne decreases our dodge to 13.8951%, and our overall avoidance to 42.7019%.

ncoming damage gets reduced as follows:

If the bosses dodge-able attacks do X damage per second, and you have avoidance A then before either gem is added, you're taking X*(1-A) damage per second due to the attacks you don't avoid. If you increase your avoidance slightly from A to A' = A + dA, it reduces damage taken to X*(1-A'). So by adding the dodge gem you've reduced your incoming damage by a multiplicative factor of (1-A') / (1-A).

Mitigation from armor M reduces damage in a similar way, from X to X*(1-M). M is defined as:
M = (Armor/(Armor+16635)
Again, if you increase your armor such that your mitigation goes up to M' = M + dM, your damage intake drops to X*(1-M').

Migitagion and avoidance are multiplicative - in other words, if you have avoidance A and armor mitigation M, your overall damage take is X*(1-A)*(1-M).

We have two situations to consider:
  • Base Configuration: A0=42.7019%, M0=65.2634%
  • +Dodge/Stam gem: A1=42.8277%, M1=65.2634%
  • +Agil/Stam gem: A2=42.8065%, M2=65.2794%

The dodge gem reduces intake by (1-A1)/(1-A0) since M1=M0. This works out to 99.7804%, or a 0.2196% reduction in damage intake.

The agility gem reduces intake by (1-A2)/(1-A0) * (1-M2)/(1-M0). The first factor works out to 99.8174%, and the second works out to 99.9541%, for a total of 99.7716%. The avoidance and armor gained from the agility gem individually give you less reduction than the avoidance of the dodge gem, but combined they end up giving you slighty more reduction than the dodge gem does. The net reduction works out to be a 0.2284% reduction in damage intake.

The ratio in this case works out to be 1.0426, or 104.0% So in terms of incoming damage, the Agility gem is 4% more effective than the pure dodge gem, and also gives you critical strike rating.

I also ran a parry gem just to see how it stacked up, and despite the fact that I'm deep into the region where I get more avoidance from a parry gem (check: (dodge-10)/(parry-10) = 2.4865 for this gear set), the parry gem is about 15% better than the dodge gem, and 11% better than the agility gem. So you will get slightly more damage prevention from a parry gem, though in that case none of it comes in the form of effective health.

Just to test the scaling, let's see how this varies with dodge rating:
Image
As you can see, Agility just gets better as you gain more base dodge rating.

Now let's see what happens as our base armor goes up:
Image
Agility gets weaker as you gain armor, finally dropping below 100% at around 42.6k armor (fully-buffed). Note that once we hit the armor cap (49905 armor fully-buffed), the armor contribution of agility is no longer giving us any benefit, so the value of agility drops back to the 83.1% value expected based on our agi->dodge conversion ratio.

Practically, this means that once we're getting close to the armor cap, we're getting close to the situation we have outside of ICC, where agility is around 98% as good as dodge rating. Most of us considered this a good trade anyway, since we got some free threat and some of the damage reduction came in the form of extra EH. Once you're over the armor cap, there's no reason to gem agility over avoidance for survival.

TLDR Summary
In Icecrown Citadel:
  • Each point of Agility is 83% as effective as a point of dodge rating for avoidance. (i.e. 10 AGI ~ 8.31 Dodge rating)
  • Each point of Agility is around 4% more effective at reducing average incoming damage as a point of dodge rating
  • Each point of Agility also gives you almost 1 pont of critical strike rating.
  • In general, if you're going to match a red socket for Icecrown progression, use an Agility/Stam gem rather than a Dodge/Stam.
  • If you're at or above the armorcap, agility drops back down to 83% the damage reduction of an avoidance gem, with no added survivability benefit.
Outside of Icecrown:
  • Each point of Agi is still 83% as effective for avoidance, but is now only 98% as effective as dodge rating for reducing incoming damage. Still a worthwhile trade though, since it gives you some of that reduction in the form of EH, and gives you threat as well.
Last edited by theckhd on Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:09 am

What I need to extend this to other classes:

Class (obviously)
Stats: (as read off of the armory)
  • Armor
  • Defense Rating
  • Dodge Rating
  • Parry Rating
  • Agility
  • Base dodge/parry/miss without gear or buffs (this probably needs to be done in-game)
  • Anything class-specific that isn't already included in the armory values

All raid buffs are already figured into the simulations, so those will be applied automatically. In general, I think everything one needs can be read off of the Armory except for the un-buffed, un-geared base dodge/parry/miss. Some of this can be gotten from the EJ combat ratings thread, but it's more of a pain to calculate than to ask someone to log in and strip down.

Example: they list a paladin's base dodge (3.49430) and agi->dodge conversion. To figure out base dodge, you need to add 3.49430 to the dodge you get from your base agility, and then add in any talents that modify either of these. I could do that for each class, or one of you could get nekkid and just tell me the net value, which is all I need.

Oh, I also need to know how much armor you get per point of agility.
Last edited by theckhd on Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:52 am

I just realized that I had a lot of this information from the Expertise calculation. Here's what I have so far:

Warrior
undr_dodge=10.06;
undr_parry=10;
undr_miss=5;
crit_per_agi=0.016;
Base_AGI=113;

Druid
undr_dodge=17.5;
undr_parry=0;
undr_miss=7;
crit_per_agi=0.012;
Base_AGI=94;

Death Knight
undr_dodge=9.95;
undr_parry=6.08;
undr_miss=5;
crit_per_agi=0.016;
Base_AGI=111;
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Shathus » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:22 pm

theckhd wrote:I just realized that I had a lot of this information from the Expertise calculation. Here's what I have so far:

Warrior
undr_dodge=10.06;
undr_parry=10;
undr_miss=5;
crit_per_agi=0.016;
Base_AGI=113;

Druid
undr_dodge=17.5;
undr_parry=0;
undr_miss=7;
crit_per_agi=0.012;
Base_AGI=94;

Death Knight
undr_dodge=9.95;
undr_parry=6.08;
undr_miss=5;
crit_per_agi=0.016;
Base_AGI=111;


I know druids get 1 AP for each point in agi in cat form, this holds true for bear as well? I can't remember. Just something that might also factor into the equation for fuzzy tanks as additional threat.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Roots » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:53 pm

Shathus wrote:
theckhd wrote:I just realized that I had a lot of this information from the Expertise calculation. Here's what I have so far:

Warrior
undr_dodge=10.06;
undr_parry=10;
undr_miss=5;
crit_per_agi=0.016;
Base_AGI=113;

Druid
undr_dodge=17.5;
undr_parry=0;
undr_miss=7;
crit_per_agi=0.012;
Base_AGI=94;

Death Knight
undr_dodge=9.95;
undr_parry=6.08;
undr_miss=5;
crit_per_agi=0.016;
Base_AGI=111;


I know druids get 1 AP for each point in agi in cat form, this holds true for bear as well? I can't remember. Just something that might also factor into the equation for fuzzy tanks as additional threat.


AP from agility is in cat form only. dodge/armor/crit is all we consider as well.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Wrathy » Tue Jan 19, 2010 2:57 pm

Looks great as usual Theck. Just for completeness, and for those who like to skim posts, you have a typo in your post for your parry percentage. It looks like you missed a 1 in front of the value.

theckhd wrote:Using avoid_dr.m, which calculates avoidance after diminishing returns, this gives me the following raid-buffed avoidance:
Dodge: 23.0489%
Parry: 9.6100%
Miss: 5.0430%
Total: 37.7019%


On an less anal retentive note, This is some interesting data, as I feel confident that some of us will be passing that 42k mark buffed in raids before this expansion is over, and as a result we may want to go back to dodge or (even) parry based off of our gear. Something to think about coming up when some random calls me a scrub for gemming for parry in my helm for my bonus armor set :D
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Hammerjudge » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:22 pm

For me, Gravity: a Death Knight (Tauren).
Stats, all from in-game, when geared (elitist group average iLevel 235, gearscore 5102, armory)
Armor: 26764 (in frost presence), 17366 (blood presence, in case it matters)
Defence rating: 681 (= defence skill 563)
Dodge rating: 652 (=27.97% after DR)
Parry rating: 679 (=20.74% after DR)
Agility: 130

Naked, unbuffed, no presence active:
Dodge: 4.94% (zero rating, and verifies the base dodge from Whitetooth is correct at 3.66400, given remaining dodge comes from base agility)
Parry: 6.04% (46 rating; forceful deflection providing 1.02% before DR on top of base parry)
Miss: TankPoints says 4.4% vs L83 target, in-game tooltip says 0% (because it's a bad tooltip), TankTotals implies 3.2% miss
Armor: 216 (from agility at 2:1 ratio)

I had no talents active that affect agility or dodge (was in a dps spec), but did have +3% strength talent.

Screenshots when naked:
ImageImageImage
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Varuk » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:13 am

Wrathy wrote:On an less anal retentive note, This is some interesting data, as I feel confident that some of us will be passing that 42k mark buffed in raids before this expansion is over, and as a result we may want to go back to dodge or (even) parry based off of our gear. Something to think about coming up when some random calls me a scrub for gemming for parry in my helm for my bonus armor set :D
Why 42k? The cap vs. level 83 mobs is 49.9k. It's possible to hit with passive armor + armor pot (if you gem full agi I've managed to crack 46k on Rawr -- obviously not doable in game) and it's definitely possible to hit with trinket proc + armor pot (I'm already at that point with Black Heart + armor pot on Festergut) but realistically I don't see any reason to stop stacking armor at 42k.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Wrathy » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:33 am

Varuk wrote:Why 42k? The cap vs. level 83 mobs is 49.9k. It's possible to hit with passive armor + armor pot (if you gem full agi I've managed to crack 46k on Rawr -- obviously not doable in game) and it's definitely possible to hit with trinket proc + armor pot (I'm already at that point with Black Heart + armor pot on Festergut) but realistically I don't see any reason to stop stacking armor at 42k.


Because of the relative gains of Agility versus dodge as posted by Theck earlier on this page:

Theckhd wrote:Agility gets weaker as you gain armor, finally dropping below 100% at around 42.6k armor (fully-buffed). Note that once we hit the armor cap (49905 armor fully-buffed), the armor contribution of agility is no longer giving us any benefit, so the value of agility drops back to the 83.1% value expected based on our agi->dodge conversion ratio.


To me once you pass this threshold, Agility is no longer the best choice for gemming. It is a personal choice, much like the relative gains of stamina. Now while I have come to align with the stam stackers in this community, I just don't see the benefit to getting less out of your gemming itemization even if it is one gem.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Varuk » Thu Jan 21, 2010 10:41 am

Wrathy wrote:To me once you pass this threshold, Agility is no longer the best choice for gemming. It is a personal choice, much like the relative gains of stamina. Now while I have come to align with the stam stackers in this community, I just don't see the benefit to getting less out of your gemming itemization even if it is one gem.
Gotcha. Still, we used to gem agility for the EHP back when it was 95% as effective as dodge at mitigating incoming damage. Why would we stop when it falls below 100%?

It's not like it's a huge amount of sacrifice per ounce of EHP. It's probably the most efficient place to gain it to be honest, sacrificing 1 point of dodge per 20 for 44 armor essentially. Using the 11.7 Armor to 1 Stamina conversion, you're basically sacrificing 1 point of dodge rating for 3.76 stamina. That's more EHP per ounce of sacrifice than gemming for 12 socket bonuses, easily.

Edit: From mitigation PoV, 20 points of agility at 95% efficiency mitigates as much damage as 19 points of dodge.

From an EHP PoV, 20 points of agility gives 44 armor, which is 3.76 stamina. 20 points of dodge give no EHP.

So, by gemming agi over dodge, for every 20 points you sacrifice 1 dodge rating worth of mitigation to gain 3.76 stamina worth of EHP.

Second edit: Comparing apples to bananas is fun. I don't even know how I managed to do that.
Gemming to match 12 socket bonuses is sacrificing 1 stamina for 3.33 avoidance. Gemming agility over dodge is sacrificing 1 avoidance for 3.76 stamina. The ratios are similar, but different things are on each side, *sigh*. To flip it around and put it into that chart, gemming dodge over agi is sacrificing 1 stamina for 0.266 dodge rating, which would make it more than 3 times more of a sacrifice per ounce than even matching 6 stamina socket bonuses.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby bzzt » Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:43 pm

Varuk wrote:Gemming to match 12 socket bonuses is sacrificing 1 stamina for 3.33 avoidance. Gemming agility over dodge is sacrificing 1 avoidance for 3.76 stamina. The ratios are similar, but different things are on each side, *sigh*. To flip it around and put it into that chart, gemming dodge over agi is sacrificing 1 stamina for 0.266 dodge rating, which would make it more than 3 times more of a sacrifice per ounce than even matching 6 stamina socket bonuses.


Actually that mitigation comparison already includes the armor.

From
Theckhd wrote:So the relevant conversions we want are:
10 Dodge Rating = 0.1258% Dodge
10 Agility = 0.1046% Dodge, 22 Armor, and 0.2112% crit


Swapping 20 agi for 20 dodge is effectively giving you
20 avoidance vs. 16.62 avoidance and 44 armor. So 3.38 avoidance cost for 3.76 stam (using the armor/stam conversion of 11.7). If I'm understanding right, that 11.7 conversion is for a standard level of armor, so when you're talking about bonus armor stacked suits, more likely than not, the ratio is higher than that. Making it a pretty similar choice to 6 point socket bonuses.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Varuk » Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:16 pm

bzzt wrote:
Varuk wrote:Gemming to match 12 socket bonuses is sacrificing 1 stamina for 3.33 avoidance. Gemming agility over dodge is sacrificing 1 avoidance for 3.76 stamina. The ratios are similar, but different things are on each side, *sigh*. To flip it around and put it into that chart, gemming dodge over agi is sacrificing 1 stamina for 0.266 dodge rating, which would make it more than 3 times more of a sacrifice per ounce than even matching 6 stamina socket bonuses.


Actually that mitigation comparison already includes the armor.

From
Theckhd wrote:So the relevant conversions we want are:
10 Dodge Rating = 0.1258% Dodge
10 Agility = 0.1046% Dodge, 22 Armor, and 0.2112% crit


Swapping 20 agi for 20 dodge is effectively giving you
20 avoidance vs. 16.62 avoidance and 44 armor. So 3.38 avoidance cost for 3.76 stam (using the armor/stam conversion of 11.7). If I'm understanding right, that 11.7 conversion is for a standard level of armor, so when you're talking about bonus armor stacked suits, more likely than not, the ratio is higher than that. Making it a pretty similar choice to 6 point socket bonuses.
The distinction doesn't fit. All dodge does is mitigate damage, and agility used to be 95% as effective as dodge at mitigating damage. This is why I'm comparing 20 agility to 19 dodge -- 20 agi. mitigates as much damage as 19 dodge used to while also giving EHP. Armor is a dual purpose stat. The mitigation and the EHP are separate parts of it's value, and should be evaluated separately.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Hammerjudge » Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:11 pm

Varuk wrote:
bzzt wrote:
Varuk wrote:The avoidance and the EHP are separate parts of it's value, and should be evaluated separately.


Agreed, but corrected.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Varuk » Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:20 pm

Hammerjudge wrote:
Varuk wrote:
Varuk wrote:The avoidance and the EHP are separate parts of it's value, and should be evaluated separately.
Agreed, but corrected.
Silly to point out, but your correction is still not correct even by that article. If I were using that article's terminology (which I agree is a decent way to describe it) then the correct sentence would be:

The damage reduction and the EHP are separate parts of it's value, and should be evaluated separately.

Because armor is most definitely not avoidance, after all.
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Re: Agility and Dodge in ICC

Postby Hammerjudge » Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:31 pm

I was being unecessarily anal, sorry, but I still think I had it right unless maybe I need more sleep. It's a debate for another thread indeed. My derail, my bad.

The point you were making I agree with: avoidance (dodge) and effective health (armour + HP) are separate and don't really mix into a single equation, except conceptually in the form Satrina called "damage reduction".
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