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Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

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Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Overwhelming » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:06 pm

Well to start here is my armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... erwhelming

I main tank our 25mans with a prot warrior whose threat sucks, so I'm normally in charge of the initial pickup.
Also, being on a backwater server, I'm pretty much in charge of running new recruits through chain heroics, and have been known (as my guild notes says) to "Take heroics seriously"

So I was thinking I should de-tune my threat to be on par with the warrior (I rip from him after his taunt wears off) and go with this spec:
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xm ... 0000000000

And as far as the heroics go, I don't need any more avoidance (Half the time I equip my old valorous gear) so pure threat was the idea, but had trouble getting hammer of the righteous and crusade without missing out on seals of the pure, so I came up with this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0xA0ugGoIufdts0dbc



Discuss?

(and yes I know I should be gemmed agil instead of dodge rating)
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby srpnt » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:34 pm

Vindication is good now. Think Demo Shout with 100% uptime, only you don't have to spend a GCD on it. It'll do you more good than 2% crit.

Ardent Defender is incredible now. You would take a skill in a heartbeat if it read 'Increases your maximum health by 7% and gives you an extra life every 2 minutes', right? That's what Ardent Defender actually does.

As to where to get the points for AD, I'd take 2 out of Reckoning and 1 out of Spiritual Attunement. Reckoning isn't going to help your threat enough to really be worth it, and 1/2 SA is plenty.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:18 pm

I'm gonna echo srpnt here in regards to your heroic spec. You don't ever need more than 3 points in Reckoning. The last two points don't do drastic things to it's uptime, so they're not important. You can also jack a point from SA unless you really think you need it. Protip: You don't.

It simply isn't possible to get a working Crusade spec AND more than 1 point into SotP. For a fully functioning Prot spec, you need 52 points.

I don't believe in substantially degrading your own performance to better match a failing groupmate. If you're seriously out-threating your co-tank, it would be in your raids best interest to analyze his playing and perfect that than drag yourself down to his level.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Alixander » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:49 pm

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:I don't believe in substantially degrading your own performance to better match a failing groupmate. If you're seriously out-threating your co-tank, it would be in your raids best interest to analyze his playing and perfect that than drag yourself down to his level.
Additionally, there are ways to tone down your threat without altering your talents. If it's a serious issue and he can't/won't fix it and your guild won't replace him (or can't because he's the GM or something), just remove some of your spells from your rotation. You want to keep up Judgement and Holy Shield due to the effects they bring, but beyond that, every other ability is optional. I'd say first try to cut out Consecration then either HotR or ShoR. That should keep your threat at a reasonable level. :) Additionally, you could have him put Vigilance on you for additional survivability and it will redirect some threat to him.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Overwhelming » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:15 pm

I most definitely don't need ardent defender or vindication in heroics.

I have to ask healers to not shield me because in my main tanking spec I only have one in spiritual attunement. I wouldnt be caught dead without vindication and AD in my main tanking spec, and I only have 3/5 in Reck in main tanking, but the heroic set is supposed to be the highest dps I can get with a sword and board.

And ya he does put vigilance, but I'll just tone down my rotation before he taunts.

Remember, when it comes to the heroic spec, survivability isn't an issue, the only time AD procs is when the healer dies(doing something stupid) and I have to solo mobs.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:25 pm

You may not need AD in your heroic spec, but it's more a question of effective use of talent points. The objective of chaining heroics is to move as quickly as possible while minimizing damage taken. The less damage you take, the more mana your healer has to use on Holy Fire, or Wrath, or whatever. AD helps in that regard by allowing your HP to drop lower before needing to be topped off. While you could argue that the minimal dps gains of two extra points of reckoning might eek out for you helps get the mobs down quicker, I'll wager it's not enough to make a visible impact. There are also more situations that could take your heals out of the equation than simple death. Disconnections, lag, fight mechanics, and even distraction could lead to long fissures of time without proper healing. It's the sign of a good tank who can minimize the impact of those situations. Whatever it takes to keep you from making a corpse run and maiming your emblems per hour is worth the points.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Overwhelming » Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:13 pm

My guild leaders alt is my healer, and the whole heroic spec banks on reckoning and seal of command as an aoe seal. Taking points out of the main mechanic behind the spec seems ridiculous for 2 points in a "what if" talent. I LOVE AD, thought, its my indicator for when its okay to press my mic button and holla at the healers to pick it up.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby blakk » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:31 pm

This is what I run for dpstanking heroics. I expect screams of heresy to follow lol
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAMzgGoIufkxf0t0c:Nz0cmz
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Overwhelming » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:59 pm

ABSOLUTE HERESY!!!!

lol, ya I was going for the same thing, cause with full prot I don't even need a healer, but i would never put 2/2 in imp judgements cause it would mess up with my rotation, and I feel divine sac is worthless cause i would never use it.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby blakk » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:02 pm

2/2 judgements can help picking up new adds or something like that and I use div sac like a dk uses ams in heroics.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:48 pm

blakk wrote:This is what I run for dpstanking heroics. I expect screams of heresy to follow lol
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAMzgGoIufkxf0t0c:Nz0cmz

I don't believe anything is horribly wrong with your spec besides burning a point in DSac with no DG. DG is what makes that talent useful. I'll continue to contend that any more than 3 points in Reckoning is an abysmal use of talent points.
Taking a look at Reckoning Uptime, once you hit 12 hits per second, which is easily attainable while chaining almost any heroic, you get a whopping <15% uptime for two talent points and it gets worse as you pull more. I guess if you REALLY want reckoning to be up ALL THE TIME you can sink extra points there.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby blakk » Sat Jan 16, 2010 9:01 pm

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:
blakk wrote:This is what I run for dpstanking heroics. I expect screams of heresy to follow lol
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZV0tAMzgGoIufkxf0t0c:Nz0cmz

I don't believe anything is horribly wrong with your spec besides burning a point in DSac with no DG. DG is what makes that talent useful. I'll continue to contend that any more than 3 points in Reckoning is an abysmal use of talent points.
Taking a look at Reckoning Uptime, once you hit 12 hits per second, which is easily attainable while chaining almost any heroic, you get a whopping <15% uptime for two talent points and it gets worse as you pull more. I guess if you REALLY want reckoning to be up ALL THE TIME you can sink extra points there.

I'm not using it necessarily for damage management more likely for mana management. If I'm with a really good group and stuff is just dying too fast but there is some sort of an aoe mob I van use that to get mana back from sa. Plus I can't really think of another place to put a single talent point that would help damage.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Overwhelming » Sun Jan 17, 2010 2:33 am

I do want reckoning up...reckoning + seal of command is the whole idea here.

I have the dps charts to prove it :)
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:58 am

Mr Overwhelming, I think you are overwhelmed by the prospects of tank dps.
1) You don't need any special spec to perform spetacularly in heroics. This alone removes any need to remove critical survival talents in the name of minimal gains.
2) As mentioned in #1, dropping stuff like AD for 5/5 in reckoning is simply not a smart move. It's been demonstrated by simulations AND expected by math that 3/5 is only worse than 5/5 by a ridiculously low margin. At the more ludicrous levels, there's literally NO difference between 3/5 and 5/5 reckoning. 3/5 works perfectly well, and doesn't gimp your survivability for when things go wrong.


Remember: You are a tank, not a dpser. Doing max dps is not your priority, even when it's not the biggest problem.
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Re: Heroic Tanking Spec & Maintanking Spec?

Postby Levantine » Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:15 pm

You're always so polite, Snakey. You said what I was going to but you didn't swear or insult his anything. *swoon*
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