Armor vs HP Math Help

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Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby towelliee » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:01 am

The difference between me in my full stamina gear 48K Unbuff and my Armor enchanced set is

3090 Armor
2.8k HP

What wins?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Dasphunk » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:28 am

I would go with 2.8k HP for physical and non physical damage fights.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby towelliee » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:07 am

Well lets take Rotface and Festergut for example

Rotface : http://worldoflogs.com/reports/euhr25co ... 791&e=7122

Festergut : http://worldoflogs.com/reports/euhr25co ... 938&e=6216

Would exchanging the 2.8k hp with 3090 armor drastically change those numbers for incoming damage?

I am not really concerned for normal mode fights. My healers tell me I am pretty much bullying my way through the current content with 60k hp raid buffed. /shrug.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Alixander » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:23 am

Could you get us your numbers buffed with Kings, Sanc, MotW, Fort, and SoE totem/HoW? These are pretty big stat changes, and all of them are modified by Kings since it's percent based and not a flat number.

Additionally, when you give us these numbers, make sure to give us your health in terms of stamina. We're more familiar with the 11.7:1 ratio in terms of armor:stamina.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby towelliee » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:42 am

Would it be possible to just get the difference flat based and non buffed?
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Wrathy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 12:06 pm

towelliee wrote:The difference between me in my full stamina gear 48K Unbuff and my Armor enchanced set is

3090 Armor
2.8k HP

What wins?

This all depends on the fight, and the source of damage. When I get home I can share my spreadsheet that I created from theck's formulas, however I dont have it at work. To elaborate, full parses do not give us an accurate idea of what is better for you because its damage taken over a significant amount of time.

e.g. If you are tanking festergut, a descent portion of your overall damage will be from the aoe shadow damage, however the part of the fight where your gearing matters most, three inhales, has little to no magic damage. This is the point in the fight where you are most likely to take the type of damage which will kill you, and that is what we are looking to prevent.

The mod in Theck's total effective health thread will give you an idea of how you died, and what percentage of damage incoming was unavoidable/mitigated by armor, but i am not sure if it tells you what piece is better. I built that part of the equation into my spreadsheet specifically for the question you are asking.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby bzzt » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:52 pm

For pure physical, the higher armor setup (most likely without the specific numbers) has slightly more EH (maybe 1%). Since that's actual damage reduction (so it's easier for healers to offset spikes) I'd tend towards that on fights where the dead tank scenario is largely physical.

For anything with a significant portion of magic involved in tank-killing spikes, go with the health.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:52 am

bzzt wrote:For anything with a significant portion of magic involved in tank-killing spikes, go with the health.


Here is the thing: thus far in WotLK, this fight doesn't exist. There are no tank killing spikes caused by magic or bleed damage, especially not any where the difference of 4k hp is going to save you at the cost of 6k or more armor. You can save yourself a lot of headache and theorycrafting by coming to terms with the fact that Armor is king, and the best way to be a more durable tank is to stack as much armor as soon as possible. Things like the Corroded Skeleton Key and most of your tier pieces are the complete opposite things you want to spend your frost badges on.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby theckhd » Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:19 pm

JamesVZ wrote:Here is the thing: thus far in WotLK, this fight doesn't exist. There are no tank killing spikes caused by magic or bleed damage, especially not any where the difference of 4k hp is going to save you at the cost of 6k or more armor.

So, let me get this straight....

T7:
-Malygos did not exist
-Sartharion did not exist
-Gluth did not exist
-Heigan did not exist (or at least, no tank ever failed the dancing portion)
-Four Horseman (Zeliek and Blaumeax) did not exist
-Anub'Rekhan did not exist
-Kel'Thuzad did not exist

T8:
-Ignis did not exist
-Razorscale did not exist
-Steelbreaker (hard mode) did not exist
-Auriaya did not exist
-Mimiron did not exist
-Freya did not exist
-Thorim did not exist
-Hodir did not exist

T9:
-Northrend Beasts did not exist
-Lord Jaraxxus did not exist
-Twin Val'kyr did not exist
-Anub'Arak did not exist

T10:
-Lady Deathwhisper does not exist
-Professor Putricide does not exist
-Blood Princes do not exist
-Blood Queen Lana'thel does not exist
-Valithria Dreamwalker will not exist
-Sindragosa will not exist


JamesVZ wrote:You can save yourself a lot of headache and theorycrafting by coming to terms with the fact that Armor is king, and the best way to be a more durable tank is to stack as much armor as soon as possible. Things like the Corroded Skeleton Key and most of your tier pieces are the complete opposite things you want to spend your frost badges on.

No offense, but the reason I do a lot of theorycrafting is because of posts like this.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:12 pm

theckhd wrote:No offense, but the reason I do a lot of theorycrafting is because of posts like this.


I'm actually convinced you do a lot of theorycrafting because you like to see your own numbers on the internet. Allow me to elaborate...

Out of all of those fights, the only one you listed that you might have any sort of leg to stand on is Malygos, where he could unleash a massive amount of magic damage followed by a fairly large melee swing in a very short period of time. There is a fight where magic damage contributed significantly to tank death. If you were a jewelcrafter back then, yes, it made sense to use 2x stamina trinkets instead of possibly something like an avoidance trinket or the armor trinket. It made a lot of sense.

Sarth's breath was definitely his most lethal aspect, in fact it was so lethal that only two classes could tank him due to basic design mechanics and cooldowns. One of them was a Feral Druid, who had so much effective health in 3.0 that just now, JUST NOW, the rest of us are finally starting to reach the same EH. The other had cooldowns falling out of their ass.

Every other fight you listed falls into one of two categories, magic damage that you needed cooldowns to survive, or a complete non-pressuring tank fight. Ignis? Really? When you're walking into a zone, asking yourself how best to gear for a trivial fight is probably not a good idea. In fact, it's a really bad idea. No one gives a shit that you are the most survivable paladin against LADY DEATHWHISPER. They care that you can take a beating from Festergut and keep on chugging.

So yes, the whole line of theorycrafting regarding TOTAL EFFECTIVE HEALTH is about as asinine as theorycrafting the color of the sky. It's ultimately irrelevant, and you can mark my words on that. I know I'm right in this because I've been doing this for a very long time, much longer than you have. A quick glance at our armories suggest much better, too.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby katraya » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:16 pm

JamesVZ wrote:
So yes, the whole line of theorycrafting regarding TOTAL EFFECTIVE HEALTH is about as asinine as theorycrafting the color of the sky. It's ultimately irrelevant, and you can mark my words on that. I know I'm right in this because I've been doing this for a very long time, much longer than you have. A quick glance at our armories suggest much better, too.



Hmn....his assertions have nothing to back them up, but he has been doing this longer. Sorry Theck, I'm never listening to you again. :lol:
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:22 pm

My assertions have real world data and various logs to back them up. Don't believe me? Pull up a log of your own. I did not too long ago in the warrior thread on the EJ forums here. The same basic concept applies to Ulduar and Naxx as well. In 99% of all cases all the time, the damage that you can REDUCE is the damage you should focus on. The difference in 4k hp is trivial for the amount of armor you give up to get it in every single case.

I'm not saying Stamina is necessarily bad to gear for. Far from it. I am saying that buying the Stamina Badge trinket for the theoretical MAGIC DAMAGE fight is nonsensical and damaging to your raid.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:54 pm

But you aren't just buying it for magic damage. It works for physical damage too. I'm not sure I understand why you want to exclude magic (or non armor reduced) damage completely, if it doesn't come in big chunks. Often that type of magic damage doesn't correspond with the swing timer, so excluding it seems illogical.

Your EJ post even discounts magic damage that does come in big chunks but is interruptable. In both of those cases, there is no other source of damage to be worried about at all, so why not gear to the only thing that has a chance of killing the tank in that fight?

It's also worth noting the values involved. There aren't many places where you can enchant, gem, or otherwise enhance a piece of gear with more armor. Plus armor items in general are relatively new, and since armor does add to EH, and since those items tend to have similar levels of stamina to their non armor counterparts, they are wildly popular.

In the example above, you note a trade of 4k health for 6k armor, that may indeed be a good trade, but generally you aren't really faced with that decision. The trinket for instance is 1800 armor for 2500 health, that's significantly different than your example. At the end of the day, EH is EH in terms of survivability whether it comes from armor or health doesn't matter much. Reduction is only better in that it saves healer mana, so the math is fairly easy to apply on a fight to fight basis as far as which one gives you the most EH.

As an aside, I'm not sure what your intent is in coming here and posting in the manner in which you have chosen up to this point. You aren't off to a very good start, and if you really are interested in posting information that helps the community, then great. I'd take the ego down a few notches, so far it's completely unwarranted anyhow.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby JamesVZ » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:07 pm

Fridmarr wrote:But you aren't just buying it for magic damage. It works for physical damage too.


Stamina does not REDUCE the amount of damage you take, it just gives you a bigger buffer. Armor is the end-all be-all damage reduction stat, period, bar none, game over. There is no questioning this, no amount of math you can possibly bring up that will change this fact. Yeah, maybe the choice per fight is maybe, maybe something like 1800 armor for 2300 health or whatever, but how you gear otherwise significantly affects it. There's generally a set of armor people like to focus on when going into a dungeon, and it shows in what they use. This is why my armory has me listed at something like 6k armor above Theck, but 4k hp shy of where he is.

Effective Health is a nice concept, sure, but the way you guys are using it to justify things like the Corroded Skeleton Key is a perversion of the concept. There is no justification for that trinket that we've seen so far, and the only case I can maybe see it having any effect at all is on Sindragosa, but we don't even really know yet, and somehow I'm doubting it will be a problem on normal anyway.

The attitude comes from the fact that I've been seeing some of the absolutely most retarded things ever regarding tank theorycrafting come from THIS VERY FORUM, and people are quoting it more and more. Otherwise good little tanks that have the skill but not the know how run around, see all this fancy math, and go "hurr hurr, yeah this guy MUST be smart." The exact opposite is true. This forum needs less numbers and more common sense.
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Re: Armor vs HP Math Help

Postby bldavis » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:10 pm

just so i make sure i understand what your trying to tell us,

we should gear for armor, and forgo all the stam that we would gain?

the way i see that, is sure that melee hit will tickle, but now the magic spike, that before we could eat no problem, suddenly is life threating. Armor is a great thing, but ill still use my stam trinkets, esp for progression.
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