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"Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:13 pm

Wrathy wrote:While this alone would tell me that my hunch is true, the problem is that there are other factors that I was not considering, aka our healers doing a better job of avoiding damage taken on the BB. Really, for the current normal mode content, its irrelevant, as he hits like a kitten, and tanks don't have to worry about survival, threat, or avoidance, however come Hard Mode, establishing if melee swings add to BP would be very beneficial.


I know my guild did a very bad job in week one of avoiding stuff. We had blood nova idiocy, beasts wailing on people, etc. By the next week we had a dramatic improvement in all of those areas.

I've been using 10-man as a testing ground for this, and it seemed to me that the BP gain was too slow for melee hits to be a contributor. When I last killed him on 10-man, he wasn't even close to getting a single Mark. If he really did gain BP from melee hits, then it seems like it would be really hard to avoid getting a Mark in 10 man (although perhaps it's just that full absorbs of melee hits via bubbles prevent the gain).

It's definitely worth testing. I'm saved on all my characters this week, but if I can get my group to agree, I'll test it next week (unless someone beats me to it this week).
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Chicken » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:29 pm

From what I've noticed his BP never goes up until after the first time he's used his Boiling Blood ability, which is his first special ability normally; it's certainly possible I've always avoided all his blows coming up to that point though, it doesn't take particularly long for him to use it after all.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:57 pm

So as not to derail this thread further, I'm making future posts in the Icecrown Citadel / 25 Deathbringer Saurfang thread, since that seems like a more appropriate place for this discussion.

I put a link to a log report up there that IMO shows pretty conclusively that he doesn't gain BP from normal melee hits.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:16 pm

Chicken wrote:From what I've noticed his BP never goes up until after the first time he's used his Boiling Blood ability, which is his first special ability normally; it's certainly possible I've always avoided all his blows coming up to that point though, it doesn't take particularly long for him to use it after all.

This part I can guarantee - I'm absolutely certain I've been hit multiple times by Saurfang while he's remained at 0 BP.

That said, I think the ambiguity is just whether he gains BP every time a player takes damage from the Mark ability, or whether the tank avoiding the triggering hit prevents the gain.

My guess is that Kihra is correct, since it's also the most sensible solution from a coding perspective. I see no obvious reason why it would have been coded such that the tank avoids the hit, the marked player still takes damage, but BP is not gained. It makes the most sense to me that BP is gained whenever the marked target takes damage, so if they take damage even when the tank avoids a hit, then avoidance gearing is not particularly preferable on that fight.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby wingman » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:51 pm

Kihra and I have tanked this encounter together multiple times, and I can attest with 100% certainty that his assertion is correct. I remember the first couple of times we tanked this encounter and I piled on every piece of avoidance gear I had, yet we still had tons of marks going out on the raid and even wiping while learning the encounter. As our raid improved general positioning and execution, we now kill the boss with 1 mark at most going out while he and I wear threat gear and our overall avoidance going way down. The prevention of blood power gain on this fight has everything to do with raid execution and tank awareness (quickly taunting when the other tank gets debuffed) and nothing to do with a tank's avoidance. Our guild has split into 2 25 man raids each of half alts and half mains in order to gear up our mains quicker. As such, I've tanked this fight with the off tank being an alt that isn't used to tanking progression content, and I can tell you that space cadet tanks who stand there and don't taunt quickly when the other tank gets the debuff will hurt your raid much, much more than any amount of gear that your tanks wear.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:24 pm

I just wanted to post that I was actually wrong about Rune of Blood. The latency in the heal going off could cause it to follow the tank swap in combat logs and made it look like the heal was happening after a Dodge/Miss/Parry.

Avoidance *does* matter for Rune of Blood. He does have to hit the tank to cause Rune of Blood damage and heal.

Marks, however, still go off on a miss, dodge, block or parry.

Therefore avoidance still isn't particularly relevant for the fight since you have to tank swap.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Reynardadin » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:24 am

Hey all,

Just a quick heads-up that I've now published a release version of TankTotals, including the new EH2 (aka NEH) module. The main features are as follows, cribbed shamelessly from the changelog:

  • EH2: based on the formula outlined by Theck, this calculates Effective Health and overall mitigation given the percentages of melee, bleed, and magic damage for a given fight.

  • Custom percentages of each damage source can be set via the configuration GUI. These can be saved and reloaded as EH2 Profiles:

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  • TankTotals will also optionally record damage during a fight, and upon a tank's death will show the percentages of each damage type incurred since the most recent time the tank was healed to 100%. These figures can then be used to recalculate EH2 using the hyperlinks supplied with the report:

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(Note that in the above image, the Damage values for each school represent the sum of post-mitigation damage including absorbs, blocks and probabilistic resistance, i.e. d + a + r + b. The addon distinguishes between absorption due to Ardent Defender and that due to shield effects, as well as between guaranteed minimum resistance and probabilistic resistance in excess of this. Absorbed is the total of probabilistic resistance, shields and blocks. Avoided is the sum of missed attacks, determined by recording the average damage of each attack over the course of the fight. Avoidance can be included in or excluded from the computation of relative damage percentages at the discretion of the user.)

  • If combat data is recorded, TankTotals will show Lower and Upper EH2 bounds; these numbers respectively indicate the amount of EH2 that would have been necessary for the tank to have survived his death, and the amount of EH2 necessary to survive had he not blocked, avoided, absorbed, resisted or been healed.

  • In similar fashion to the EH2 Profiles discussed earlier, recorded damage logs can be saved as EH2 Data Segments and reloaded at any time:

ImageImage

  • The addon will also account for mixed-magic damage, i.e. spells which choose your lowest resistance from two different schools, and inflict damage on that basis.

  • For paladins, the EH2 recording module can be set to either suspend recording when Ardent Defender's heal procs, or to continue recording until such time as you actually die.


Other new features:

  • DataBroker integration
  • LibSink integration allows secondary announces to be sent to any channel or scrolling combat text addon
  • Updated to reflect 3.3 changes (including all Tier 10 4-set tank effects, Rune of the Nerubian Carapace)
  • Customisable audio alerts for taunt misses
  • Automatically enable/disable the addon when switching to primary or secondary specs
  • Will of the Necropolis cooldown bar
  • More refined Ardent Defender/WOTN tracking
  • Choose between continuous or step damage for time-to-live calculations
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Awyndel » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:17 pm

Extremely impressive work on the addon. Brilliant way to turn theory into practice.

It might be a good idea to make it possible for us all to somehow submit the death logs into a public database, so we can compare results, and get more data on new bosses faster.

Dunno if it's possible for the addon to submit/download this for us, the database could also be a plugin for the addon.

I will be testing this in this weeks raids for sure.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Serv » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:06 pm

Rhynardin,
i just tried out your addon. I really like it - BUT. I don't know who did the German translations. If you are interessted in a rework send me am pm.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Reynardadin » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:08 am

Thanks, I've PM'd. Seems like a good time to note that none of the newest features in TankTotals have been localised yet, so if anyone is willing to do translations please let me know!
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Re: "Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:49 am

Satrina has suggested an excellent term to describe this complete picture of EH - "Total Effective Health" or TEH. This makes a clear distinction between "classical" EH (or PEH - physical EH) and magical EH (MEH).

I've edited the original post to use this new terminology consistently. I've also included BEH in the article as an acronym for Bleed EH using the same convention.
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Re: "Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Hammerjudge » Sun Jan 17, 2010 12:46 pm

TEH makes sense, cos its teh answer.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Reynardadin » Mon Jan 18, 2010 1:57 pm

Awyndel wrote:It might be a good idea to make it possible for us all to somehow submit the death logs into a public database, so we can compare results, and get more data on new bosses faster.

Xenix wrote:First, a slider for non-resistable magic damage (a la froststrike or plasma blast).

Both the above suggestions have now been added in TankTotals 4.10. Here's the changelog:

    * Import/Export entire EH2 Profile sets
    * Specify custom schools for specific spell IDs
    * Added an "Unresistible" spell school; as the name implies, this is for magic damage that cannot be resisted
    * TankTotals attempts to determine whether a given spell is unresistible on-the-fly, by checking whether the player resisted 0 while possessing enough resistance to guarantee a non-zero minimum resist.
    * If such a spell is detected, it will be automatically added to the Custom Spells list.
    * Numerous additional tweaks and fixes

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In the above screenshot, Mutated Plague and Shock of Sorrow were auto-detected as being unresistible, while Shivan Slash was classified manually.
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Re: "Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Awyndel » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:47 pm

Hey reynard,

I can see the addon also records the healing received during the burst window. If more physical damage is taken, this health received from healing is once again affected by armor, therefor increasing the value of armor. Does it take that into account as well when calculating the values?

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... 40#p535719

In case you missed that monster of a thread, the basics are in there somewhere.
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Re: "Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Fastous » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:10 pm

For my own understanding; correct me if I'm wrong:

Rough estimation:

12 armor = 1 stamina for physical encounters for a 100% value.

Ie. Any item that increases your Armor:Stamina ratio by more than 12:1 is technically an upgrade to a physical fight encounter. Takes into consideration tank trinkets with Armor instead of Stamina, as well.

However, if there's 20% of the encounter's damage as magical damage, the effect of Armor is reduced by 20%, which means that Armor will only be an upgrade to Stamina for that fight when the ratio is greater than 15:1.

Basically, the easiest way to figure out if Armor > Stamina is to determine how much damage of the encounter is non-physical. 20% non-physical damage reduces the value of Armor by 20%, so, a value of 1200 Armor will be roughly equivalent to 100 Stamina. Reduce the effect of the Armor by the amount of non-physical damage in the fight, and you will be able to find the equivalent value in Stamina. (ie. 20% magical damage = 1200:100 Ratio goes up 20% to 1500:1 Ratio. It won't be a 20% gain from 1200:100, it will be a 20% loss from the next value (1200 = 80% of 1500)
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