+10def vs 6stam

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+10def vs 6stam

Postby Rena » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:35 am

Hi,
This has been bugging me for a while an no one that i know can help.
im using Boneguard Commander's Pauldrons .
currently w/ +10def+15stam and 51stam w/ socket bonus of +9stam. Im debating on whether to change the +10def+15stam gem to +30stam for +6stam more stam. What'd be best to maximize tanking? I reason why i have the +10def gem in there b/c of the aura in ICC
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:19 am

budget-wise it'd be incredibly dumb to drop the enduring eye for a solid zircon, you'd be trading 10 points for 4.
Do you need that 80~ hp so much more than the avoidance given by defense? I can't see that little stam taking over that not-so-little defense for anything other than gormok/anub.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Meloree » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:19 am

Snake-Aes wrote:budget-wise it'd be incredibly dumb to drop the enduring eye for a solid zircon, you'd be trading 10 points for 4.
Do you need that 80~ hp so much more than the avoidance given by defense? I can't see that little stam taking over that not-so-little defense for anything other than gormok/anub.


Just to counterpoint - I disagree.

Given a healthy smattering of ilvl258 gear, one is basically gearing, at this point, for hardmodes. The trend in WotLK has been for hardmode tank-checks to have EH minimums that cannot be reached in progression gear without stamina-stacking.

Algalon, Yogg0, Steelbreaker, Thorim, Mimiron, Freya (depending on strat), all basically required one to stack nothing but stamina in order to reach comfortable EH minimums for the fight. Sarth3D heavily rewarded stamina stacking back when it was relevant. Gormok heavily rewards stamina stacking. Vezax rewarded avoidance, because healers were mana constrained.

Planning ahead for ICC hardmodes, I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that aside from your one red gem for the meta, every other socket should have stamina in it. Going in blind, "stack stamina" is a pretty safe guess.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Hightin-Uldaman » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:32 am

I was thinking about this last night. Wearing the 245 badge chest piece I have a JC 51 stam gem and a 10 def/15 stam gem in it for the 9 stam bonus. I decided not to because I was at 43919 unbuffed which for non hardmode ICC thats more than enough. My personal BiS list includes the Cataclysmic Chest and the player made pants. Both those pieces I'll return to stam stacking in. My only non pure stam gem is gonna be in my T10 helm to fit the meta and it has the only good 12 stam bonus placement, by that I mean its a meta gem and a red gem to hit.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Steve » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:39 am

You won't ever wipe in an encounter because you failed to stack enough avoidance.

Mitigation over time is basically irrelevant apart from severe gimmick fights the likes of which we are unlikely to see.

Stacking stamina might not be the optimal gear decision (I'd go so far as to say it probably won't be for most people not on the cutting edge of progression), but nobody is going to notice. They'll probably notice if you don't have enough effective health.

Because, you know, you'll be dead.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby HailSpork » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:12 pm

Steve wrote:You won't ever wipe in an encounter because you failed to stack enough avoidance.

Sure you do, it's just never as obvious.
If you stay low while the healers are throwing heals and you're getting hit by melee attacks, that's where avoidance helps.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Steve » Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:08 am

HailSpork wrote:
Steve wrote:You won't ever wipe in an encounter because you failed to stack enough avoidance.

Sure you do, it's just never as obvious.
If you stay low while the healers are throwing heals and you're getting hit by melee attacks, that's where avoidance helps.


It's beyond not obvious...it's probably not provable. We can pick the numbers and say there's some probability that 4% marginal avoidance would have saved you. But if you get to the point in an encounter where you need a lucky die roll to save you...

There's just a really high likelihood that someone screwed up to put you in the position to need the lucky die roll to be saved. Otherwise beating encounters would be variations on winning the lottery.

That isn't to say avoidance itself is useless. It's the marginal amounts of avoidance in comparison to the marginal amounts of effective health that's at issue.

For instance, if people had 0 avoidance out of the gate, we might view hitting some magic avoidance number in the same way we view hitting the right effective health number for an encounter -- as an almost necessary condition for completing the encounter with any degree of consistency.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Wrathy » Fri Jan 08, 2010 9:23 am

Once again, we have had this discussion for countless pages in the Progession MT gearing thread. Progression tanks (which I believe the OP falls into with the types of gear he is wearing) will always benefit more from stamina than avoidance. As many have said, avoidance is not something that you can count on to save you, if there is a chance that you can take back to back hits which could kill you, you will eventually take those hits.

As a MT you shouldn't leave your survival up to chance. If you stack more stamina, you push the threshold of AD, give your healers more room to heal you back up to full, and are more predictable when it comes to incoming damage. The biggest problem that we are facing now, which was different when we had our major discussions in the aforementioned thread, is that chill of the throne has completely destroyed the relative gains of avoidance. going for 70 to 71% avoidance is a much larger reduction in relative damage intake than a 50-51% gain.

In the end, I was the one who most avidly supported avoidance and geming for the socket bonuses to maximize your reduction in damage intake, however that no longer is our best method of surviving incoming burst damage. Stack stamina, and be happy that you have a larger buffer. We are at the tipping point of stamina being the ultimate life saver. Most Progression tanks are fast on the heels of 60k hp. That means you are at the point where you can take three back to back 20k hits, or two 30k hits, etc off any boss so far and survive. That is why we stack stamina. If your healers cant heal you through that, then you need to recruit some new healers.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:58 am

Wrathy wrote:chill of the throne has completely destroyed the relative gains of avoidance. going for 70 to 71% avoidance is a much larger reduction in relative damage intake than a 50-51% gain..


"completely destroyed" is a bit of an exaggeration. The relative damage reduction is lower with Chill of the Throne in effect but you are still getting decent-sized damage reduction for each percentage of avoidance. Going from 50 to 51% is still a 2% damage reduction.

Aside from that I completely agree with you. :)
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Epiclepsy » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:24 am

I dont think there is "right" answer for this kind of gemming question, I would just gem whatever you think would benefit you the most. For example I have tanked every encounter in game except Yogg+0 and Putricide on 25 man and I have died two times (by that I mean that I have died while we still have had change to kill the boss) - once on Mimiron´s Plasma Blast and once on enraged Icehowl. And since stamina´s only benefit is preventing me from dying, I dont think it is worthwhile for me to stack stamina and ignore socket bonuses. If you feel like I do, I wouldn´t bother with all out stamina, however if you don´t, go for max EH of course.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby PsiVen » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:27 am

It depends where you draw the line. Personally, I try to take +9 stam socket bonuses if I only have to change one gem, but not +6 stam bonuses or any which require two off-color gems.

For EH, sure it's always best to ignore bonuses and do whatever gets you the most stamina. But you have to consider, for example, whether you might use that piece of gear on an avoidance fight where the value tips the other way. Versatility always leans you towards maximizing the gain from itemization points.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby wingman » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:41 pm

PsiVen wrote:It depends where you draw the line. Personally, I try to take +9 stam socket bonuses if I only have to change one gem, but not +6 stam bonuses or any which require two off-color gems.

For EH, sure it's always best to ignore bonuses and do whatever gets you the most stamina. But you have to consider, for example, whether you might use that piece of gear on an avoidance fight where the value tips the other way. Versatility always leans you towards maximizing the gain from itemization points.



I agree with Psiven. A +9 stam socket bonus is worthwhile if one of the gem sockets isn't blue, such as these: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47003. Gaining 15 points of itemization while losing 6 points of stam is ok by me. +6 stam bonuses, however, are not worth it. Also, +12 stam bonuses that require 2 non blue gems are also not worth it. Something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=46968, just gem straight stam. Something like this: http://www.wowhead.com/?item=51917 would be worth it if the socket bonus was stam, but sadly, it's probably dodge rating or something craptastical like that.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Varuk » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:17 pm

Epiclepsy wrote:I dont think there is "right" answer for this kind of gemming question, I would just gem whatever you think would benefit you the most. For example I have tanked every encounter in game except Yogg+0 and Putricide on 25 man and I have died two times (by that I mean that I have died while we still have had change to kill the boss) - once on Mimiron´s Plasma Blast and once on enraged Icehowl. And since stamina´s only benefit is preventing me from dying, I dont think it is worthwhile for me to stack stamina and ignore socket bonuses. If you feel like I do, I wouldn´t bother with all out stamina, however if you don´t, go for max EH of course.
This deserves to be said. When was the last time you actually died while tanking? Especially since the AD change. Honest to goodness, the last time I can remember dying was when Icehowl enraged a second time in a fight. Oh wait, I died once on Marrowgar after both OT's died from being too spread out and not splitting lash damage properly.

Decreasing death scenarios is obviously our primary job as tanks, but let's be honest, is it really valuable to reduce a 2-in-a-million chance to 1-in-a-million? It's worth considering that there comes a point where it isn't; whether or not we're there, though... that's a different question. Especially given that the only times we actually seem to die any more is when some fight mechanic gets horribly botched.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Kihra » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:33 pm

As has been said before, the goal of EH gearing is to survive the worst burst damage of a fight. Once that EH threshold has been exceeded, it's ok to stack other stats like threat or avoidance (assuming the fight has no mechanic that significantly devalues avoidance).

The reason you see paladin tanks with 48k health right now and full-on stamina stacking is that those tanks are preparing for 25 man ICC hard modes. We know that once we're all fully decked out in 264 gear that we'll probably be over the EH threshold for most hard mode fights, but while still in 245/258 gear we haven't necessarily exceeded that threshold yet.

Basically gearing for EH is something you do on progression until you have determined what the EH threshold for a fight is. Once you know you're safely over, you can do what you want.... match socket bonuses, get more threat/avoidance, etc.
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Re: +10def vs 6stam

Postby Varuk » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:38 pm

Kihra wrote:As has been said before, the goal of EH gearing is to survive the worst burst damage of a fight.
Except we cheat. We don't have to survive the worst burst damage of a fight. We just need to keep it from happening more than once every 2 minutes.

I would be amazed if the minimum safe health level on hard modes was above 55k for us. Seriously surprised.
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