Defense Argument

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Defense Argument

Postby Tonen » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:12 pm

So the main tank of my guild is convinced that the defense minimum to tank TOC is 550 and the defense minimum to tank ICC is 560. I currently have 544 defense because I follow you guys in that 540 is the minmum for any raid because all bosses are level 83 for every raid. I am passed over to tank toc (and if better geared icc) because my guild believes me not to be crit capped for them.

Am I the one wrong in this issue, or is there an actual higher defense value for these two instances?

And yes, I could just get more defense just to appease them, but I just want to make sure that I'm not the one off the deep end.

Thank you beforehand.
Last edited by Tonen on Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:21 pm

Your main tank is retarded. 540.
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby Nikachelle » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:24 pm

Find a new guild. You're dealing with idiots.
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby Tonen » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:24 pm

Thank you for the quick response.

This forum has helped a lot the past few months, thanks all!
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby blakk » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:30 pm

i've run into this problem with people before only i'm usually better geared and such than them so the raid leaders listen to me and tell them they're retarded :D
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby bldavis » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:30 pm

Nikachelle wrote:Find a new guild. You're dealing with idiots.

Amen Sister!
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby Alixander » Fri Jan 08, 2010 2:41 pm

To give a more complete answer, most monsters have approximately a 5% crit chance (a few have more, but we're not going to gear for those random occasions...). For each point of Defense over the natural Defense Max (i.e. 400 at level 80) grants a reduction in chance to be crit by 0.04%, thus to get a 1% crit chance reduction we require 25 points of Defense (not Defense Rating), ergo to remove crit chance of a level 80 monster we are required to be 125 Defense Points over the natural Defense Max, or 525 Defense Points total.

Now, it's a rare thing for us to fight instance or raid monsters that are equal level. For each level over 80 that the boss or mob is, it increases their chance to crit by approximately 0.2% (why, that's equal to 5 Defense points, exactly what you get by leveling up! :o ). There are currently no monsters which are naturally level 83, instead everything other than boss-level monsters are levels 80-82, which is why we need only 535 Defense for Heroics and Trash. OTOH, Boss-Level monsters have a steady crit chance status of being "Our level +3", so for them we will always need to be 140 points over the natural Defense Max, no matter what level we are at. For example, a level 75 tank who fights an old raid boss, like Prince Malchazzar, would need 515 Defense Points.

So there you go!
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby lythac » Fri Jan 08, 2010 3:25 pm

I fricken <3 brackets, this is the simple version.

PL*5 + (5+(0.2*(ML-PL))) / 0.04 = Uncrittable

PL = Player level
ML = Mob Level


vs 83/?? at level 80
80*5 + (5+(0.2*(83-80))) / 0.04 = 540

vs 82 at level 80
80*5 + (5+(0.2*(82-80))) / 0.04 = 535

vs 81 at level 80
80*5 + (5+(0.2*(81-80))) / 0.04 = 530

vs 80 at level 80
80*5 + (5+(0.2*(80-80))) / 0.04 = 525

vs 73/?? at level 70
70*5 + (5+(0.2*(73-70))) / 0.04 = 490

vs 72 at level 70
70*5 + (5+(0.2*(72-70))) / 0.04 = 485

vs 63/?? at level 60
60*5 + (5+(0.2*(63-60))) / 0.04 = 440
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby Chicken » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:14 pm

Alixander wrote:Now, it's a rare thing for us to fight instance or raid monsters that are equal level. For each level over 80 that the boss or mob is, it increases their chance to crit by approximately 0.2% (why, that's equal to 5 Defense points, exactly what you get by leveling up! :o ). There are currently no monsters which are naturally level 83, instead everything other than boss-level monsters are levels 80-82, which is why we need only 535 Defense for Heroics and Trash. OTOH, Boss-Level monsters have a steady crit chance status of being "Our level +3", so for them we will always need to be 140 points over the natural Defense Max, no matter what level we are at. For example, a level 75 tank who fights an old raid boss, like Prince Malchazzar, would need 515 Defense Points.
It should be noted that boss levels actually function slightly more complexly. While this isn't something that you'll see often in practice, boss level mobs actually have a set minimum level they'll be at as well for these kind of purposes. All bosses in WotLK content are considered to at least be level 83, but will scale up higher if your level +3 goes higher than 83.

As I said, this isn't something you'll often see in practice, but it was tested back in TBC: A level 60 tank that was crit capped for level 63 mobs could still get crit by Doomwalker. Doomwalker is always at least level 73. It's likely the same is true for all other bosses in the game.

So in some ways, the WotLK raid bosses are naturally level 83, however, since you can't visit any of them without being level 80 this doesn't really make a difference in practice.
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Re: Defense Argument

Postby Alixander » Fri Jan 08, 2010 4:21 pm

Chicken wrote:It should be noted that boss levels actually function slightly more complexly. While this isn't something that you'll see often in practice, boss level mobs actually have a set minimum level they'll be at as well for these kind of purposes. All bosses in WotLK content are considered to at least be level 83, but will scale up higher if your level +3 goes higher than 83.

As I said, this isn't something you'll often see in practice, but it was tested back in TBC: A level 60 tank that was crit capped for level 63 mobs could still get crit by Doomwalker. Doomwalker is always at least level 73. It's likely the same is true for all other bosses in the game.

So in some ways, the WotLK raid bosses are naturally level 83, however, since you can't visit any of them without being level 80 this doesn't really make a difference in practice.
Interesting and very good to know. Thanks for the clarification.

EDIT: Hopefully Blizzard has decided to do away with the Open-World raid bosses and this doesn't become an issue in Cataclysm or beyond. >_<;
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