DPS Tanking & Heroics

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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby halabar » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:35 am

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Can't use ShoR or HotR w/ a 2her, so unless you were ret-tanking it'd be a waste of time. My personal goal is a QD, but a Nighttime would work well also.


Nighttime... where is that from? Anything decent from one of the 5-mans?
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Zobel » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:37 am

halabar wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Can't use ShoR or HotR w/ a 2her, so unless you were ret-tanking it'd be a waste of time. My personal goal is a QD, but a Nighttime would work well also.


Nighttime... where is that from? Anything decent from one of the 5-mans?

Bronjahm (HFoS) drops Nighttime.
The gauntlet event in HHoR drops Black Icicle.

Both are slow ilvl 232 dps one-handers.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby halabar » Tue Jan 05, 2010 10:51 am

Zobel wrote:
halabar wrote:
Grehn|Skipjack wrote:Can't use ShoR or HotR w/ a 2her, so unless you were ret-tanking it'd be a waste of time. My personal goal is a QD, but a Nighttime would work well also.


Nighttime... where is that from? Anything decent from one of the 5-mans?

Bronjahm (HFoS) drops Nighttime.
The gauntlet event in HHoR drops Black Icicle.

Both are slow ilvl 232 dps one-handers.


You mean I think I voted DE on one of those.. /cry

Oh well, I'm still farming for a hilt..
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby theckhd » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:51 am

Khael wrote:Theck Meloree and Wrathy i managed to catch a glimpse at your "dps-tanking" gear on armory while you had it equipped at some point during the day. Thanks, what i dont understand tbh, but maybee its me, is it dosent seem like your willing to "push" the issue as much as i maybee was expecting, switching 2 trinekts and a weapon is not excatly dps-gearing imo. (I dont say this to be rude just that i thought you guys would have more "extreme" setups)


Well, I have two different Outfitter setups, one called "Tank-Heroics" and one called "Tank-lolHeroics". The second is a bit more extreme than the first. But even there I don't go too overboard. I think it switches out weapon, libram, trinkets, and boots, as well as subbing in two high-STR high-BV tanking pieces for shoulders and legs. The legs are T9 with two STR gems, and I should really change the enchant on those to the AP/agility one.

That said, there's a balance to be struck. Of course you could wear all ret gear and tank the instance that way, but you'd likely be crittable and would be in much greater danger of a wipe. And one wipe is enough to offset all of the time gained by wearing DPS gear.

Perhaps more importantly, to pull 7k+ DPS in a heroic you also need to be chain-pulling. You'll never see those sorts of numbers if you kill one pack at a time. Consecration's lack of AoE damage cap means that to really push your DPS you need to be tanking groups of 6+. You basically need to be strafing through the instance pulling pack after pack until you have 3 packs or so, kill most of them, strafe the rest to the next 3 packs, kill most of those, and pull the next pack or two straight to the boss. Which means you'll constantly be tanking 3+ mobs, and in many cases 10+. The damage intake can be pretty high even with a conservative mix of DPS and tank gear. So if you go too far overboard, you'll just die from spike damage.

Khael wrote:I bring this issue up because of the proposed 7k dps statement, and from what i could see my "dps-stats" were actually higer then yours Meloree, yet i cant do 7k dps on a single target fight.

I doubt that it's even possible to reach 7k single-target DPS as prot yet. You would have to be wearing mostly Ret gear to come close, I'd imagine. Boss fights are going to be the low points in your DPS for the run, though you can still break 4k on those if you try hard enough and swap gear on the fly (and switch back to SoV). But you're generally better off pulling the last trash pack or two with you to the boss, and having everyone burn down the boss while you let your AoE damage wear down the trash.

Khael wrote:For instance, is it worth changing your meta gem from a block value to the 3% increased crit damage one? how aobut shoulder enchants ? Leg enchant or even head enchant ?

Probably all of the above, if you can afford to drop the defensive stats. I don't do it because it would involve regemming or re-enchanting a lot of my progression gear. I like out-dpsing pugs in heroics, but not the the point that I'd want to regem things daily. I've been starting to regem stuff I've replaced and use that in my heroic set (like the T9 legs).

Khael wrote:Or take it one step further as "Inthedrops" has done and I have considered doing aswell.. use defense trinkets and go with more retribution gear ? surely the gain in using an armor piece with dps stats would be higher then using a Mirror's Truth over say Onyxia trinket to cover the defense loss..?

The DPS stats on the ret gear are usually less important than the STR, and our tanking gear already comes with a lot of that. If you pick tanking gear with high STR and expertise, hit, and BV, you'll often come in pretty close to a ret item in that slot, especially considering that your ret gear might not be as good as your prot gear (mine certainly isn't).

With trinkets, you're usually getting Stamina, avoidance, or armor, none of which give you any DPS. So swapping out two trinkets worth 0 dps for trinkets worth a sizable amount is a pretty good trade. I haven't sat down to crunch the numbers on every piece of tanking plate and ret plate though - I'm not serious enough about this idea to put that much effort into it, and I already have enough other things that are actually tanking related that I want to get done that are slightly higher priority. :P

Khael wrote:PS: If anyone of you math gods out there could help answer a question for me (Theck maybee:)?)
What would give the higher dps, im not thinking threat although thats part of it ofc, of the weapons :
Frostblade Hatchet http://www.wowhead.com/?item=48043 vs Bonebreaker Scepter http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50760
and
Frost Giant's Cleaver http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50787 vs Quel'Delar, Cunning of the Shadows http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50046

I've already run the calculations for all of those weapons here. Pretty much any 2.6-speed DPS weapon will beat Bonebreaker Scepter, even the 219 ilvl ones from the normal mode of the Icecrown 5-mans. Frostblade Hatchet's alliance version is The Lion's Maw.

Frost Giant's Cleaver is only slightly weaker than Quel'Delar, CotS.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Wrathy » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:19 pm

Khael wrote:Theck Meloree and Wrathy i managed to catch a glimpse at your "dps-tanking" gear on armory while you had it equipped at some point during the day. Thanks, what i dont understand tbh, but maybee its me, is it dosent seem like your willing to "push" the issue as much as i maybee was expecting, switching 2 trinekts and a weapon is not excatly dps-gearing imo. (I dont say this to be rude just that i thought you guys would have more "extreme" setups)

Theck cleared up most of this, but I would say that if you saw me with just a few trinkets and a weapon changed out, that was my boss threat set. My heroics set has some ret pieces in it. However, as theck has already pointed out, the 258 tanking gear is loaded with strength, and I acutally get more out of using that than my crappy ret gear. I would say that the only thing I could do at this point is totally regem my 245 gear, but even then it would be a marginal upgrade for spending quite a few red gems.

Also, with my past experiences with healers in the LFG, I have needed all 39k of my hp and defense. I have had to heal my self, LoH multiple times, and I take a significant amount of damage from the fact that I usually have 6+ adds on me at any time. I am pretty sure that in a few months when I upgrade to 264 gear (when hard modes come out), my 258 gear will go to LOL heroics with str gems and different enchants if I still need badges (but then again, it may be the same as my 245-258 gear, the str on the higher set may still win out and not be worth the gold).
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Meloree » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:33 pm

I've done a few stunt parses, and I'm yet to come anywhere close to 7k single-target dps in a raid setting, even, let alone heroics. 7k dps in heroics means a fairly big "rolling ball of pain", and it's not "for the instance" so much as "for a set of trashpacks". It also depends on what you have in your 5man. Unholy DK helps a lot, getting 13% magic damage on everything, for example, and that's several hundred dps difference at that level.

I think the best single-target dps I've come up with is 6.2k dps on 25-man Algalon, but that was really stacking the deck up for a parse. I swapped my meta gem for 3% crit damage, ran a 2/51/18 spec, and let the bear take care of debuffs, and wore a gearset that isn't far off the heroic gearset you saw. Admittedly, one spends some time not tanking, and my tanking stats were still comparable to those I had in full progression gear on our first kill. I could probably beat that parse, but not by very much.

I'm not sure T9 gear really supports 7k single-target dps, while maintaining uncrittable, without fight gimmicks. Possibly 25man patchwerk now, with a sub one-minute fight. Possibly if you've somehow scored a pair of Death's Verdicts to wear, but Edge really sucks at dropping trinkets.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Iselian » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:45 am

theckhd wrote:That said, there's a balance to be struck. Of course you could wear all ret gear and tank the instance that way, but you'd likely be crittable and would be in much greater danger of a wipe. And one wipe is enough to offset all of the time gained by wearing DPS gear.



Funny sidenote, my heroic-tanking set uses 2 ret rings, a ret back, neck, bracers and belt. I swap in a 245 Bloodletter and my BV shield. Oh, and ret boots. My defense is 500.

I've been crit on multiple occasions in heroics. In fact, it's more often than you'd think. I'm crit for all of 5000 to 6000, out of my still-close-to-45k health pool.

I wouldn't be afraid of dropping the defensive gear in a heroic. Do it a piece at a time. If the healer is undergeared (hey, we were all fresh 80's at some time) or low-skilled (it is just heroics..) then I'll put on the full tanking gear. I also use full tanking gear in the new 5mans, just to favor a bit of caution. Ain't solo'ing heroic Marwyn in ret gear.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Kelaan » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:28 pm

I run heroics with my maxed-BV set. I just like Not Taking Damage, partly, but it also tends to have pretty silly damage output. I stay at 540 defense, since sometimes I might want that on a boss (Patches was funny ;)), but generally stack BV and str, and use a DPS weapon.

I'm over the BV cap for ShoR damage, but I take bunches less damage from physical attacks. I'm not near passive block cap, either. I don't feel comfortable going below 540 def, though I imagine that I could go to 535 with no troubles. I just dont want to be wearing it to tank boss trash (e.g., Anub's adds), have the tank wipe, and then get crit when I go to pick up the boss. ;)

I'll see what I can do to put on more ret gear ... but generally, the str on my tanking rings is more than that on my ret rings.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Awyndel » Thu Jan 07, 2010 1:49 am

Tbh i'm quite happy doing 3-4K dps average on the total damage done meter, taking virtually zero damage in my 4300 block value set. I just wear most of my str gemmed anub 2 adds set, with some dps trinkets and a slow weapon. Having like 35K buffed most healers can keep you up with magic damage. And if you're with a really noobish group and they all die you can solo about any physical or slightly magical boss fight with seal/judge of light.

If you're specced into seal of command, wich i can really recommend in 3.3 for trash packs and garantueed instant agro in boss fight adds, you don't even have to make a special hc spec and you can just keep that ret/pvp spec going.

And tbh, nobody does 7K single target with 5 man buffs, and nobody does it aoe on average either. That's pulling packs of 15 mobs with the right buffs and that's peak. Your averages are prolly gonna be 3-4K, and 5K for those who spec and gear completely for straight up damage. Switching to a slow weapon seems to give me a HUGE boost though on big pulls.

Just remember to skip concecrate if you're low on mana. Think theck showed it costs about half as much as changing seals to wisdom.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby Thels » Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:29 am

If I can trust my healer, it's just full ret gear for me, with a 1h and shield that are enchanted with accuracy and block value (I don't actually consider specifically gemming/enchanting for 5 man gear, so I make do with gear I already have on hand).

One time in HoS, a mage was whining about prot DPS when we accidentally pulled a pack too many, and I pressed DProt and went all out, linking me his Recount showing me at 6.2K DPS. :P
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby blkthunder » Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:39 am

My "dps" set isnt as extreme as some of yours. I just go with DMC:G, Black Icicle w/accuracy, BV libram, +hit chest from h.FOS i think.
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby nastaran » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:09 pm

is there any benefit to using a faster high dps weapon for heroics while running SoComm? Currently I have a slow weapon but the main purpose for that is the SoV 5 stack proc. On trash running Socomm though you won't have any 5 stack procs =P
I'm guessing the Socomm proc rate is set per minute and the weapon speed won't make it proc any more or less over a minute?
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Re: DPS Tanking & Heroics

Postby blkthunder » Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:59 pm

nastaran wrote:is there any benefit to using a faster high dps weapon for heroics while running SoComm? Currently I have a slow weapon but the main purpose for that is the SoV 5 stack proc. On trash running Socomm though you won't have any 5 stack procs =P
I'm guessing the Socomm proc rate is set per minute and the weapon speed won't make it proc any more or less over a minute?


Both seals scale with how much weapon damage you do. So running with seal of command witha slow dps weapon is the equiv of having HotR up for all your melee attacks. I think they took out the proc rate on it as it works with every single target attack (judge, sor, melee).
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