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"Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby bashef » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:21 am

kihra wrote:Mark ticks happen regardless of whether or not Saurfang's melee attack hits. The tank's avoidance is irrelevant.


This simply isn't true. Everyone with the mark takes damage every time Saurfang's target is hit, which causes a gain in blood power. Furthermore, Saurfang's connecting melee swings cause him to gain blood power. The higher avoidance the tank has, the less damage the raid takes and the slower Saurfang gains BP, causing fewer marks and thus less raid damage again. Furthermore EH gear isn't necessary because he really doesn't hit hard.

The issue is that in normal modes it's possible to tank it in just about anything and still succeed.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 24, 2009 11:48 am

bashef wrote:
kihra wrote:Mark ticks happen regardless of whether or not Saurfang's melee attack hits. The tank's avoidance is irrelevant.


This simply isn't true.


Yes. It is. Go back and check combat logs. It's quite clear that marked targets take damage any time Saurfang performs a melee attack. Even if that melee attack misses, the marks tick at the time he performs it.

Look at a combat log, and you'll see what I mean.
Last edited by Kihra on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Wrathy » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:00 pm

Kihra wrote:
Wrathy wrote:However at the same token, Gunship and Saurfang reward avoidance as well (so armor vs. stamina trinket debates are nullified).


Saurfang does not reward avoidance.

The reward of avoidance has nothing to do with damage output on the tank, the raid, etc. It has to do with the accumulation of Blood Power which will in turn result in Marks on the raid. How many marks do you get per encounter, we get three or less. He only gains Blood Power when a successful attack is landed. The less attacks landed, the less raid damage, pure and simple. Therefore, Avoidance is highly rewarded.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:37 pm

Wrathy wrote:
Kihra wrote:
Wrathy wrote:However at the same token, Gunship and Saurfang reward avoidance as well (so armor vs. stamina trinket debates are nullified).


Saurfang does not reward avoidance.

The reward of avoidance has nothing to do with damage output on the tank, the raid, etc. It has to do with the accumulation of Blood Power which will in turn result in Marks on the raid. How many marks do you get per encounter, we get three or less. He only gains Blood Power when a successful attack is landed. The less attacks landed, the less raid damage, pure and simple. Therefore, Avoidance is highly rewarded.


No, this is incorrect. I'm just repeating myself at this point though, so see my previous posts on the subject.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Chicken » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:38 pm

Kihra wrote:
Wrathy wrote:
Kihra wrote:Saurfang does not reward avoidance.

The reward of avoidance has nothing to do with damage output on the tank, the raid, etc. It has to do with the accumulation of Blood Power which will in turn result in Marks on the raid. How many marks do you get per encounter, we get three or less. He only gains Blood Power when a successful attack is landed. The less attacks landed, the less raid damage, pure and simple. Therefore, Avoidance is highly rewarded.


No, this is incorrect. I'm just repeating myself at this point though, so see my previous posts on the subject.
Or to add some proof to it:

[19:47:09.198] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Shanu Dodge
[19:47:10.134] Deathbringer Saurfang Mark of the Fallen Champion Medij 5788
[19:47:10.436] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Shanu Parry
[19:47:11.319] Deathbringer Saurfang Mark of the Fallen Champion Medij 5742
That's a combat log bit taken from our most recent 25-man kill of him. As you can see Mark of the Fallen Champion does damage even if Deathbringer Saurfang does not hit with his melee swings.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Alixander » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:01 pm

Chicken wrote:
Kihra wrote:
Wrathy wrote:The reward of avoidance has nothing to do with damage output on the tank, the raid, etc. It has to do with the accumulation of Blood Power which will in turn result in Marks on the raid. How many marks do you get per encounter, we get three or less. He only gains Blood Power when a successful attack is landed. The less attacks landed, the less raid damage, pure and simple. Therefore, Avoidance is highly rewarded.


No, this is incorrect. I'm just repeating myself at this point though, so see my previous posts on the subject.
Or to add some proof to it:

[19:47:09.198] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Shanu Dodge
[19:47:10.134] Deathbringer Saurfang Mark of the Fallen Champion Medij 5788
[19:47:10.436] Deathbringer Saurfang hits Shanu Parry
[19:47:11.319] Deathbringer Saurfang Mark of the Fallen Champion Medij 5742
That's a combat log bit taken from our most recent 25-man kill of him. As you can see Mark of the Fallen Champion does damage even if Deathbringer Saurfang does not hit with his melee swings.
Funny, you two are replying to a point that Wrathy didn't make. Now, I can't say who's right either way as I've never done Lord Marrowgar, let alone Deathbringer (though I'd definitely like to know for when it's my turn), but what Wrathy was saying was that he gains Blood Power by hitting with a melee attack which is what he uses to put Marks on targets. Therefor having more avoidance means less Blood Power so less marks.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:23 pm

Alixander wrote:Funny, you two are replying to a point that Wrathy didn't make. Now, I can't say who's right either way as I've never done Lord Marrowgar, let alone Deathbringer (though I'd definitely like to know for when it's my turn), but what Wrathy was saying was that he gains Blood Power by hitting with a melee attack which is what he uses to put Marks on targets. Therefor having more avoidance means less Blood Power so less marks.


The BP gain is tied to the ticks of the Mark, which do not depend on the tank's avoidance. I cannot prove this with a combat log, though, but it is observable. Anyway, it would be pretty nonsensical if the Marks ticked on misses but he didn't gain BP on those ticks. :)
Last edited by Kihra on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Alixander » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:57 pm

Kihra wrote:Anyway, it would be pretty nonsensical if the Marks ticked on misses but he didn't gain BP on those ticks.
Why? (Serious question)
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:07 pm

Alixander wrote:
Kihra wrote:Anyway, it would be pretty nonsensical if the Marks ticked on misses but he didn't gain BP on those ticks.
Why? (Serious question)


If the marked target is suffering a negative effect even on a missed swing, I would expect the BP gain to happen as a result of this negative effect. Similarly if Saurfang is healing as a result of the Rune of Blood tick even on missed swings, it would be odd for him not to also gain BP from the heal.

But ok, point taken, if they wanted to disconnect the BP gain from the negative effects of the ability they could. That doesn't seem to be the case though. Typically the people asserting that avoidance matters on this fight have also asserted that the tank can stop the negative effect of Mark by stacking avoidance. Combat logs clearly disprove that notion.
Last edited by Kihra on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Alixander » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:37 pm

Based on the text for the Blood Link power (which, as far as I understand it, is how he gains Blood Power) says "Saurfang gains Blood Power from damage he inflicts with abilities and summoned creatures."

This leads me to believe he gains Blood Power by doing damage (of course more than once the text and what something does aren't necessarily accruate). Therefore dodged attacks would mean less BP.

I would wager that this approach would be most useful in an single-tank situation, or if your tank was also tanking the Blood Beasts (intentionally or otherwise).
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:59 pm

Alixander wrote:Based on the text for the Blood Link power (which, as far as I understand it, is how he gains Blood Power) says "Saurfang gains Blood Power from damage he inflicts with abilities and summoned creatures."

This leads me to believe he gains Blood Power by doing damage (of course more than once the text and what something does aren't necessarily accruate). Therefore dodged attacks would mean less BP.

I would wager that this approach would be most useful in an single-tank situation, or if your tank was also tanking the Blood Beasts (intentionally or otherwise).


"Abilities" does not include melee hits. It's very clear that he does not generate BP from hitting the tank (in the absence of Mark and Rune of Blood). You can observe this in 10-man by just watching how slowly he generates BP. If he truly were gaining BP from melee hits, his BP would go up way way faster than it does.

As for Rune of Blood and Mark, this just further supports what I'm saying, since Mark and Rune are both abilities, and they both cause damage.
Last edited by Kihra on Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:02 am

Kihra wrote:"Abilities" does not include melee hits. It's very clear that he does not generate BP from hitting the tank (in the absence of Mark and Rune of Blood). You can observe this in 10-man by just watching how slowly he generates BP. If he truly were gaining BP from melee hits, his BP would go up way way faster than it does.

As for Rune of Blood and Mark, this just further supports what I'm saying, since Mark and Rune are both abilities, and they both cause damage even when the tank is missed or dodges/parries the attack.


This (referring to the whole conversation) is rather interesting. I wasn't aware that the mark hits whether the tank is hit or not. That severely weakens the apparent value of avoidance on this fight, as his melees aren't that hard and he's purely physical damage. It makes this a straight-up EH fight unless you're solo-tanking (which is really not advised anymore given the recent buff to his healing rate).
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Awyndel » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:08 am

Well 4 lines from a combat log don't really prove anything. Could somebody look into this? Very interesting theories.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:32 am

Awyndel wrote:Well 4 lines from a combat log don't really prove anything. Could somebody look into this? Very interesting theories.


If you've ever done this fight on an alt and received the Mark, it's pretty obvious that the tank's avoidance isn't stopping you from taking steady regular damage from the ticks. If avoidance were relevant, you'd have streaky periods where you'd take no damage at all from the Mark, and that just isn't what happens.

I am happy to post combat log snippets, but as I said before, they only prove that the tank's avoidance doesn't stop the Mark and the Rune effects. You can't see BP gains, but it's logical to me that they would be tied to the Mark/Rune effects.
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Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Wrathy » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:23 am

Kihra wrote:
Awyndel wrote:Well 4 lines from a combat log don't really prove anything. Could somebody look into this? Very interesting theories.


If you've ever done this fight on an alt and received the Mark, it's pretty obvious that the tank's avoidance isn't stopping you from taking steady regular damage from the ticks. If avoidance were relevant, you'd have streaky periods where you'd take no damage at all from the Mark, and that just isn't what happens.

I am happy to post combat log snippets, but as I said before, they only prove that the tank's avoidance doesn't stop the Mark and the Rune effects. You can't see BP gains, but it's logical to me that they would be tied to the Mark/Rune effects.

The more i have looked into our log parses, the more I find that current parse machines do not prove or disprove the melee theory. I will concede, and never argued that, the damage output from the marks and boiling blood cause blood power. Unfortunately, I cleared both ICCs on both toons on tuesday, and have a few more days before I can look at the combat logs for an encounter. The problem with my hunch, is compounded by multiple variables. The first week, when i was in Max EH gear, we had something like 7 Marks when we killed him. After that, I have been wearing pure avoidance gear, and we have been getting 3 marks in 25 man.

While this alone would tell me that my hunch is true, the problem is that there are other factors that I was not considering, aka our healers doing a better job of avoiding damage taken on the BB. Really, for the current normal mode content, its irrelevant, as he hits like a kitten, and tanks don't have to worry about survival, threat, or avoidance, however come Hard Mode, establishing if melee swings add to BP would be very beneficial.
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