Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

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Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby diplomat » Thu Dec 24, 2009 1:35 am

I have a small 10m group that runs two Pally tanks. We currently have a dispute over which spec is better to run, puts out the most TPS/has the best raid viability. Here is my situation. I’ve included cut/paste stats. I’d prefer not to link directly to their armory if I can avoid it.

Our main tank and typically more informed tank runs a spec with 3/5 in Reckoning:

MT spec
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=2&tal=000000000000000000000000000500503500313231133331232150230230000300000000000000

• Strength: 1466
• Agility: 156
• Stamina: 2860
• Intellect: 101
• Spirit: 103
• Armor: 26828
• Damage: 594 - 779
• Speed: 1.50
• Power: 3152
• Hit Rating: 173
• Crit Chance: 15.26%
• Expertise: 10
• Armor: 26828
• Defense: 559
• Dodge: 28.74%
• Parry: 21.25%
• Block: 11.36

The off tank is currently pushing that 3 points in Divine Guardian to be able to use DS is a better spec for an OT and offers some raid utility.

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=2&tal=000000000000000000000000000500513520310231133331232151130230000300000000000000

• Strength: 1418
• Agility: 136
• Stamina: 2811
• Intellect: 101
• Spirit: 103
• Armor:
• Damage: 661 - 870
• Speed: 1.70
• Power: 3056
• Hit Rating: 190
• Crit Chance: 14.88%
• Expertise: 15
• Armor: 26418
• Defense: 567
• Dodge: 28.54%
• Parry: 21.59%
• Block: 13.94


Being the diplomat (and unfamiliar with Pally tanking) I told the OT to bring both Prot specs into raid (ICC) and if it didn’t work then he could at least just change specs and we could continue uninterrupted. We only cleared one boss (no show in a couple of main raiders) but his threat didn’t seem to be an issue with the dps. According to the MT his threat was way down. Both tanks are more or less geared identical (ToC/badge gear) so I can’t speak to whether he was having an off night or it was due to his spec. I also can’t speak to the truth of his claim because I’m a healer/dps in raid and I don’t typically watch threat meters.

My thoughts:

The MT is typically much more informed on tanking specs and tends to make better gear choices. The MT doesn’t really receive our OT trying to be the authority on anything tanking, and typically the OT just follows our main tanks lead. Our OT is trying really hard and he just isn’t there yet with class knowledge. He jumps at any piece of gear that is tanking gear whether or not it is truly an upgrade. He’s not a loot whore he just isn’t good at thinking through his rolls on gear on the fly and tends to jump at marginal or lateral upgrades.
The Divine guardian option seems gimmicky to me and I’ve yet to see a case where it was truly needed. We two heal ToC/ICC with a Pally and a druid healer. If the raid is taking so much AoE that he needs to pop DG then I just spec holy and assist on raid heals for the fight, but 95% of the time 2 healers is fine.

A lot of this argument feels like the OT trying to step up to MT’s level and there’s a bit of a epeen contest going on. For the purposes of squashing this argument and smoothing out my raid which spec do you guys feel is a better spec for just plain old 10m content running 2-3 Healers and 2 Pally tanks. I feel that our OT needs to stick to basics because he’s not at a point where he needs to be creative with his spec/raid position. His lack of situational awareness doesn’t lead me to believe that if DG/DS were needed he would recognize it and pop it without us organizing the encounter around him and stating “at this point your going to pop it” or “we’ll tell you when to use this”. I’d just go Holy and pick up the slack healing. Also as a healer if this spell cast isn’t anounced its going to cause our healers to switch focus to that tank. As a healer the thought of a tank willingly getting crushed to 20% sounds like it would be frustrating as a healer didn’t know it was coming.

Please let me know if I need to clarify anything. Again I’m a Priest not a Pally so I’m still researching the class, and will continue to do so.

Thank you in advance for the help.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:57 am

Both specs are perfectly viable, and the DG one can be used while maintanking through the usage of a macro to cancel the damage-taking piece in a fraction of a second. His point in benediction could be better placed in improved judgments for when you have to pull mobs unpredictably, which is more useful than the mana saving(it's really just useless. A single point in SA provides much more mana than a single point in benediction can save, for example)

The first guy's spec, with reckoning, is also good, but today the best use for reckoning is for a stronger SoComm, good for trash pulls.
There's very little to do when it comes to threat and specs. Reckoning is, in fact, the weakest threat talent we can pick for boss tanking(and only the best for trash if you have SoComm)

Both are using excellent, though not perfect, specs.

Looking at their stats... The second one is more likely to produce more threat due to a higher expertise, higher hit, and higher top-end weapon damage. Make sure both know very well what the 969 is.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby diplomat » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:51 am

Typically the 2nd one is lower on the threat chart or so I'm told. I think a extremely mediocre internet connection plays into this.

He also isnt as uber leet with his 969 rotation. The 1st one tends to know the class a little better and is always more proficient w/ his rotations. Both are ok players the 1st just has alot more time into it, and is much more skilled with the class.

Is there an addon to track threat? I'm probably going to start paying closer attention to this in the future. They never fightt the dps unless its a random trash mob and the dps gets a head start.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:12 am

diplomat wrote:Typically the 2nd one is lower on the threat chart or so I'm told. I think a extremely mediocre internet connection plays into this.

He also isnt as uber leet with his 969 rotation. The 1st one tends to know the class a little better and is always more proficient w/ his rotations. Both are ok players the 1st just has alot more time into it, and is much more skilled with the class.

Is there an addon to track threat? I'm probably going to start paying closer attention to this in the future. They never fightt the dps unless its a random trash mob and the dps gets a head start.

Threat meters aren't very accurate for tps(for that a regular damage meter after the fight will do).
The core of the threat comes with the 969. If he hasn't mastered it, to the point he knows when to break it, then he can still improve it.Don't expect a tankadin to outthreat someone with the same output if one is taking damage and the other isn't, though.

Based on what's posted so far, I can tell you his problem will not be the spec. Both specs are too similar and the (very little) the first gains with reckoning, the other gains with hit and expertise.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby diplomat » Thu Dec 24, 2009 5:24 am

#2 Still has a ton of room for improvement, and he does stuff a little better each time we go in. He just tends to make the same mistakes on little things like taunting off of the MT in trash or grabbing the wrong mob here or there. We run w/ a group of fairly seasoned 4-5 night a week 25m raiders. They typically expect alot of our newly formed 2 night a week 10m. #2 started playing/tanking in ToC so this is his 1st real raid tanking exp. Tanking tends to be a thankless job kind of like healing so I feel for a core position when its strugling.

I tend to be more laid back about it. I was just looking for a way to quantify tps so know when things are exagerated. But if you guys think both specs are fine then thats good enough for me.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby Snake-Aes » Thu Dec 24, 2009 6:33 am

Instant tps is kinda hard to measure... If he's on top when he's supposed to be on top of the threat meter, and dps isn't having to stop unreasonably(say, threat capped in normal situations like tanking gormok or saurfang), he's already "sufficient" there.
Better measures of his threat output will be the quicker stuff: like picking marrogar up, or catching the trash before it catches the squishies, or his mana management on low-damage fights.
On total threat done, it's as I said...a dps meter will give you what you need. Holydamage*2,574 + nonholydamage*1,43 is his total threat done through the fight.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby Dasphunk » Thu Dec 24, 2009 4:24 pm

Pretty much what Snake said. It will probably their rotations and how the apply it in certain situations and who is actually tanking the boss and who isn't.

Their specs are both good and both should do around the same tps, tank #1 might do a little more. Stats wise, tank 1 has a handful more STR then tank #2 but tank #2 has a little more Hit and EXP which now outdo STR in threat until hit capped and soft cap for EXP. It looks like they still would have equal or close to equal threat with their stats.

Tank 2's weapon is a slower speed and has more dmg which will do more threat then tank #1's weapon though.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby Wakeman » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:59 pm

Like others said, both spec are viable and should be able to produce good threat. Stats are ok too. If tank #2 really has threat problem, it's probably something else.

Does he have Glyph of Seal of Vengeance and use Seal of Vengeance when tanking? Is he using 969 rotation? Does he frequently oom?

Afterall, it is very difficult to qualify/compare threat level of different tanks. Imo it's good enough as long as the dps don't complain frequently. As a matter of fact, if your raid is not out-geared to ICC, DG/DS can probably benefit the raid more than Reckoning.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby diplomat » Fri Dec 25, 2009 12:10 am

Neither has mana issues or threat issues at this point. The both use identical 969 rotations. Our MT helped me gear and teach the OT how to play the game. He isnt as pacient as some of us and I think that the spec was an argument for the sake of argument. I think we need to polish up some situational awaremess and gearing/stat issues and things will be fine.

We're cleared through the new ICC bosses but there's always room to improve. I just wanted to make sure our OT wasnt scrubing it up w/ his spec or copy pasting some wacked out 25m heroic tanks spec.
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Re: Reckoning v.s. DG/DS (non tank q's)

Postby theckhd » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:27 pm

There's nothing particularly wrong with either spec. I run a very similar build, though I usually drop 2 points from Conviction for Pursuit of Justice.

I generally run with DS/DG for the extra raid cooldown, as it gives you a free 20% raid-wide damage mitigation cooldown on a 2-minute timer with no drawbacks. But Reckoning has become a viable threat option with faster-hitting bosses, so there's nothing wrong with going that route. In fact, I'm specced that way right now for faster heroic clears.
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