"Total" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Warning: Theorycraft inside.

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, theckhd

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Elsie » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:09 pm

As I said above though - your method is completely valid for seeing if you can survive a series of hits. It will not, however, allow you to create any generalized formulas for which stats give you more EH, which is what an actual EH formula is for.

Well, actually, it would show which stats benefit you more to surviving the encounter, which is the whole reason of using EH. The downside is the remaining HP (or not remaining HP), which isn't assigned a weight. Theoretically you could still estimate, like the original post, but then you end up where you started.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Xenix » Thu Dec 10, 2009 2:13 pm

Elsie wrote:
As I said above though - your method is completely valid for seeing if you can survive a series of hits. It will not, however, allow you to create any generalized formulas for which stats give you more EH, which is what an actual EH formula is for.

Well, actually, it would show which stats benefit you more to surviving the encounter, which is the whole reason of using EH.


Note the "Generalized formulas". If I asked you to determine for a paladin with 55k buffed health and 30k buffed armor, if trading 2000 health for 2000 armor was better EH for a fight with the tank-killing damage you're concerned about having 65% of the incoming damage as physical and 35% as magic (post-mitigation), your method would require many lines of calculation.

Using the formula derived by Theckd, however, you could tell that with a single-line calculation.

Both will tell you if you survive a specific hit, but the formulas in this thread will allow you to draw generalizations that are true for all encounters, instead of saying "calculate the health you'd have after that hit series with all your gear choices and see which leaves you with the most".

If your question is instead "How much health will I have after XXX series of hits", then you're not doing an EH calculation, and stuff in this thread isn't going to be of any help to you.

Really, though - as Theckd said earlier, nothing in this thread is something you couldn't calculate by taking a bit longer before. It's just delving deeper into what we already know so we can better understand it and possibly use that understanding to learn something new.
Kimurellia - Holy/Protection Paladin - Scions of Destiny - Eredar-US
User avatar
Xenix
 
Posts: 244
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:56 am

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Elsie » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:40 pm

Note the "Generalized formulas". If I asked you to determine for a paladin with 55k buffed health and 30k buffed armor, if trading 2000 health for 2000 armor was better EH for a fight with the tank-killing damage you're concerned about having 65% of the incoming damage as physical and 35% as magic (post-mitigation), your method would require many lines of calculation.

Using the formula derived by Theckd, however, you could tell that with a single-line calculation.

In real terms, you'd likely to be filling in the variables in a spreadsheet or program which did all these calculations for you. Thus, process has some merit despite ease of understanding.

Both will tell you if you survive a specific hit, but the formulas in this thread will allow you to draw generalizations that are true for all encounters, instead of saying "calculate the health you'd have after that hit series with all your gear choices and see which leaves you with the most".

If your question is instead "How much health will I have after XXX series of hits", then you're not doing an EH calculation, and stuff in this thread isn't going to be of any help to you.

Sorry, but this is not necessarily true in either case. You cannot draw generalizations that are true for all encounters since damage is variable, and thus percentages drawn off damage are encounter specific. Also EH is only significant in the worst case scenarios. Otherwise you're a sponge or working toward the 'next worst case scenario.'

Also, your questions is wrong. Consider it, instead, like this: "Can I survive after this typical scenario? With what margin of error? What if the scenario was slightly worse?" That would be the similar as your constructed question, and it would be answerable by the methods by Theckhd.
Really, though - as Theckd said earlier, nothing in this thread is something you couldn't calculate by taking a bit longer before. It's just delving deeper into what we already know so we can better understand it and possibly use that understanding to learn something new.

Yes, and I even stated this earlier. And other people have responded, and I have reiterated this. We are all aware of this. This actually support lines of investigation to see if it can be done differently, since the supporting logic is the same. So let's move on from restatement.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Hammerjudge » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:44 pm

Great work on the addon, Reynard. From reading your posts, you seem to have implemented NEH in a very useful way.
- Gravity
Hammerjudge
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Awyndel » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:45 pm

I know it's not about armor vs stamina but since we're talking about EH for various damage types here I would really like to know where resist fits into this equation, and how much help it will be in different situations. Should be too hard since you already have some resist worked into the formula's

It would be really good if we good put some numbers on how it relates to stamina under different conditions, pretty much like you just did for armor.

Now obviously we can figur out the basics ourselves, how much magic damage of that type is in the fight, and in the killer spikes. But is there any way to compare stamina to resist when talking one damage type? This would put it in perspective.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Jackinthegreen » Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:52 am

Based on the results shown in post 35, wouldn't it come down to 15 resist being greater than 18 stamina?

Technically speaking it looks like resists could be compared to armor in a roundabout way, mostly on the basis of diminishing returns as you get closer to the cap. Armor is pretty close to linear in terms of its value as mitigation as you get more of it, but resistance is slightly harder to value and from what I've seen isn't quite linear.

I'm curious as well to see what values come from solving for resist=stam.


Theck, thank you for all the work you have put in for tankadins as well as the information trickle to everyone that comes from these calculations. Keep up the awesome work!
Jackinthegreen
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:22 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Hammerjudge » Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:30 am

Curious to hear if anyone has collected data on the % damage types (for ICC), so we can use those figures as inputs to the NEH formula?
Hammerjudge
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:36 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Anorian » Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:43 am

I doubt we can really say what's needed now, with 3/4 of the fights unreleased and none of the hardmodes available it's really hard to say what is going to be hard and what not. Thus speculation is a bit early at this stage.
Image
User avatar
Anorian
 
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:38 am

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Wrathy » Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:09 pm

Hammerjudge wrote:Curious to hear if anyone has collected data on the % damage types (for ICC), so we can use those figures as inputs to the NEH formula?


With a sample set of two (per instance, 4 if you run both 10 and 25), making a public list would not be advised. We can derive some general ideas of what you are going to run into though. Marrowgar, Gunship (enemy captain and adds), and Deathbringer Saurfang are almost 100% physical damage. However at the same token, Gunship and Saurfang reward avoidance as well (so armor vs. stamina trinket debates are nullified). The only fight where you take any semblance of Magic damage is Lady Deathwhisper, and at the same time, none of it is threatening. The largest threat to survival is Deformed Fanatics, and that is pure melee damage as well.

As we push forward in the instances, I will discuss this more, and more than likely create a list of general percentages for the bosses most threatening attacks, however not yet. You have to remember that it is not as simple as using world of logs, or WWS, or what ever parser you use and look at the over all damage. You have to find that 3 second window where you either died or proc'ed AD and understand how to increase your survival for that part of the fight.

P.S. - I wrote that whole thing before I realized it was you Gravity. I'll be putting up the list on my blog soon too.
Dakiros wrote:Hear that sound? Its Wrathy breaking Wowhead and Wordpress while he quickly comes up with the Rival set.

Avenging Wrathy - A Protection Paladin Blog
Wrathy's Guide to Gear Sets

Image
Wrathy
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 548
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Jackinthegreen » Thu Dec 24, 2009 3:36 am

While we're on the subject of how armor counts as EH, I've done some numbers on how The Black Heart compares.

10 second buff of 7056 armor, ICD of 45 seconds for an uptime of 22.22% "equaling" a static 1569 armor. On a fight with purely armor-mitigated damage, the armor alone would be worth 134 stamina. Add in the native stam and it's 260. Definitely a keeper.
Jackinthegreen
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:22 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby æ » Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:29 am

Jackinthegreen wrote:While we're on the subject of how armor counts as EH, I've done some numbers on how The Black Heart compares.

10 second buff of 7056 armor, ICD of 45 seconds for an uptime of 22.22% "equaling" a static 1569 armor. On a fight with purely armor-mitigated damage, the armor alone would be worth 134 stamina. Add in the native stam and it's 260. Definitely a keeper.


Is this accounting for stamina modifiers? 134 would convert into 107 from Sanctuary and talents. :cry:

However that is still 233 stam.
10 SIN
20 GOTO HELL
User avatar
æ
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 8:02 pm
Location: Santa Barbara

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Awyndel » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:42 am

The problem with the black heart never was the average EH value. It was the constant EH value. Wich is not reliable because of the low uptime, in relation to incoming damage uptime.
User avatar
Awyndel
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:49 am
Location: The Netherlands

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:48 am

Wrathy wrote:However at the same token, Gunship and Saurfang reward avoidance as well (so armor vs. stamina trinket debates are nullified).


Saurfang does not reward avoidance.
Kihra
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Iselian » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:31 am

Kihra wrote:
Wrathy wrote:However at the same token, Gunship and Saurfang reward avoidance as well (so armor vs. stamina trinket debates are nullified).


Saurfang does not reward avoidance.


On the contrary, many would argue he does. When a raid member is given Mark of the Fallen Champion, they take damage when you take damage. If you're sneezed on for 1 damage, they take the mark damage. Avoidance is rewarded here because as you gain more avoidance, you are helping to reduce what might be a raid killer by taking fewer hits.

Or so the thought path goes.
Iselian
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: "New" EH - incorporating different damage types into EH

Postby Kihra » Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:33 am

Iselian wrote:
Kihra wrote:
Wrathy wrote:However at the same token, Gunship and Saurfang reward avoidance as well (so armor vs. stamina trinket debates are nullified).


Saurfang does not reward avoidance.


On the contrary, many would argue he does. When a raid member is given Mark of the Fallen Champion, they take damage when you take damage. If you're sneezed on for 1 damage, they take the mark damage. Avoidance is rewarded here because as you gain more avoidance, you are helping to reduce what might be a raid killer by taking fewer hits.

Or so the thought path goes.


Mark ticks happen regardless of whether or not Saurfang's melee attack hits. The tank's avoidance is irrelevant.
Kihra
 
Posts: 556
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:01 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Advanced Theorycraft and Calculations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Feuerbart and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 3 users online :: 2 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Feuerbart and 1 guest