Agility > Stamina?

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Agility > Stamina?

Postby Ciremo » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:46 pm

When loading my Paladin into Rawr(Leorith on Scarshield Legion) I was surprised to see it rate agility gems above every other gem available. I know that Rawr likes armor, but didn't think it would make it better than dodge, or stamina. I recall Theck posting some number for how effective agility gems are, something about being 98% effective as dodge gem, armor included. So can anyone explain why Rawr would do this? It feels obvious that regemming every gem into agility would be a bad idea, considering how hard a lot of bosses hit nowadays (Gunship General, for instance), making the TTL factor more important.

Thanks for any input on the matter.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Meloree » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:54 pm

RAWR is bad at tanking with default settings.

It overvalues threat stats, and it overvalues avoidance stats. Agility gems is probably a symptom of this, with threat and avoidance benefits.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Wrathy » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:04 pm

From most of Thecks math, it is my opinion that agility is a very powerful stat because of the triple dipping it allows, but it is a balanced stat, so it is not powerful in any one area. You get some armor, you get some crit, and you get some dodge, but you dont get a lot of everything.

Based on our current discussions here, RAWR is wrong, and stamina is by far the most important gem you can use. There are quite a few long discussions or meetings of the minds on this forum regarding this comparison, and the pure effective health that stamina gives us with out thought of diminishing return is more beneficial with respect to TTL than any of the avoidance stats that RAWR may say are beneficial.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Ciremo » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:31 am

Thank you. Is there anyway to turn off threat in the way Rawr values items?
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Wrathy » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:49 am

Ciremo wrote:Thank you. Is there anyway to turn off threat in the way Rawr values items?

You have different options when it comes to the relative value of items. There is a drop down menu that you have to select. Usually its default to "Overall" but if you swap it to survival it may help. I actually haven't used Rawr In a while though so I am not completely sure that will alleviate the issue.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby theckhd » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:14 am

Ciremo wrote:Thank you. Is there anyway to turn off threat in the way Rawr values items?

Better solution: Don't use Rawr. Download RatingBuster and customize your gear in-game with equipment sets.

I use Rawr at home for Ret and Balance. It's great for DPS. But tank gearing is much trickier than coming up with one number, and I've found in the past that I'm never satisfied with what it chooses. It's just the wrong tool for that job.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Spectrum » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 pm

theckhd wrote:Better solution: Don't use Rawr. Download RatingBuster and customize your gear in-game with equipment sets.


It's strange. For DPS I always end up making stat weights and either using lootrank.com or Pawn. However, for tanking I have always loved my good-ol' RatingBuster.

With RatingBuster I can tell at a glance if the item makes for a good EH, Avoidance, or Block piece. Often the trade-offs are pretty obvious, like, "Oh, this item causes me to lose 0.38% avoidance but I gain 567 health. Done."

It's easy to boil DPS down to one or two numbers, since they have one and only one job generally and that is DPS without regard for mana or health. Tanks have to balance threat, avoidance, effective health, and maybe block. You're never going to be able to get a single list of what's "best".
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Alixander » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:39 pm

Spectrum wrote:You're never going to be able to get a single list of what's "best".
Oh that's easy. Everything is "best". :mrgreen: :lol:
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby fuzzygeek » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:23 pm

Alixander wrote:
Spectrum wrote:You're never going to be able to get a single list of what's "best".
Oh that's easy. Everything is "best". :mrgreen: :lol:


More of everything with a second set with alternate gems and enchants. And a third set with same gems different enchants. And a fourth set for putting spirit.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby bentglasstube » Tue Jan 05, 2010 1:58 pm

theckhd wrote:Better solution: Don't use Rawr.


The last time I tried to use Rawr for tanking, it suggested I remove the enchant from my shield entirely so I don't put too much faith in it for tanking.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Wrathy » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:43 pm

bentglasstube wrote:
theckhd wrote:Better solution: Don't use Rawr.


The last time I tried to use Rawr for tanking, it suggested I remove the enchant from my shield entirely so I don't put too much faith in it for tanking.

Well that was because Intellect isn't really good for tanking, I mean come on, I wish they would put an enchant in the game for us, like stamina, or Defense, or Block (oh wait... yeah rawr sucks for tanks)
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Aedh » Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:34 am

Wrathy wrote:
bentglasstube wrote:
theckhd wrote:Better solution: Don't use Rawr.


The last time I tried to use Rawr for tanking, it suggested I remove the enchant from my shield entirely so I don't put too much faith in it for tanking.

Well that was because Intellect isn't really good for tanking,

So does that means I should stop gemming int?
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby theckhd » Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:44 am

Aedh wrote:So does that means I should stop gemming int?

Correct. You should be gemming straight spirit and mp5. You know, in case Divine Plea drops off. Or something.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby Flex » Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:44 am

theckhd wrote:Better solution: Don't use Rawr. Download RatingBuster and customize your gear in-game with equipment sets.

I use Rawr at home for Ret and Balance. It's great for DPS. But tank gearing is much trickier than coming up with one number, and I've found in the past that I'm never satisfied with what it chooses. It's just the wrong tool for that job.


Rawr is great for seeing where you sit with gear, I never use it to find ideal gear sets.

I used Rawr to build a set of ICC 10 loot to see if I could use both of the crafted items without defense since even in a mix of 232/245 gear I straddle the 540 line all too much.

To get rid of agility gemming go to the Edit Gemming menu and disable all the ones you don't want.
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Re: Agility > Stamina?

Postby lythac » Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:50 am

Flex wrote:I used Rawr to build a set of ICC 10 loot to see if I could use both of the crafted items without defense since even in a mix of 232/245 gear I straddle the 540 line all too much.


I prefer chardev for this I find it quicker/easier to use, plus I can look at the same gearset from home and work, able to link gearsets (Anub Block set etc.) on forums and when advising people on gemming/gearing changes give them a profile (if I like them enough to take the time to make one).

theckhd wrote:
Aedh wrote:So does that means I should stop gemming int?

Correct. You should be gemming straight spirit and mp5. You know, in case Divine Plea drops off. Or something.


I never understood gemming of straight spirit and mp5 as they are both blue gems. I take it there is a ratio. I see 1:1.88 every now and again for gemming, guess its that.
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