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[25]Lady Deathwhisper

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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Niinbob » Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:54 am

If you are not using 3 tanks for this fight, you should be, we tried it with 2 tanks and I wanted to pull my hair out trying to get aggro on 3 side mobs and the 1 in the back with all the absorbs/99% melee reduc the adds have.

I never found the need to kite deformed fanatics, just call them out and make them #1 dps priority and pop a cooldown while tanking them. At one point I had 2 normal fanatics and a deformed fanatic on me, popped SI and called out for extra heals, I was fine.

As for the 99% Melee dmg reduc mobs, what worked for us was I would taunt it and run it to max range till some caster pulled aggro then feral charge/bash then taunt again and run it. By the time it got away from me again it was dead. With pallys having 2 taunts and HoJ I figure they could do something similar?

I have seen a Deformed Fanatic get the buff that makes them heal a % of the dmg they do, and I have seen an Empowered Adherent get the absorb shield. I don't think the Reanimated Fanatics/Adherents cast those buffs tho, as least I havn't seen it.
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Digren » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:35 pm

We ultimately spent most of Sunday wiping to this fight. While it got better every time, on the last attempt we still wiped after just 4 and a half minutes with Deathwhisper's shield still at 80%.

We took the opportunity to record the last attempt of the night. I have two videos below, the first from my point of view as left-side tank, the second from the raid leader's point of view as a hunter mostly working right side. (No idea how YouTube took my 5 minute video and made it seven minutes; both videos are of the same attempt.)
tank pov
hunter pov

I was hoping to add a WoW Meter log to go along with this, but the raid leader either hasn't posted it, didn't take it, or WoW Meter isn't working for ICC yet.

I'm a few posts behind in this thread (will catch up tomorrow), but from what I saw:
  • We seemed low on DPS, but this was the same thing I felt on faction champions when we spent a few weeks wiping to them, and it turned out we had the kill order and crowd control methodology wrong
  • I didn't really feel like I was having problems. Note that we run with four tanks - have since early BC - so we have someone covering left side, right side, back adds, and a fourth tank picking up the resurrected mobs for kiting. Again, this really doesn't hurt our DPS most of the time as we do ok.
  • We had one person (Amadan, the top DPSer according to the DPS meter on the above hunter's screen) focused full time on Lady Deathwhisper, but it just wasn't enough. Others only got intermittent time on her between adds.
  • The adds were going down fine until something got loose and wiped the raid.
  • ...otherwise, we're at a loss. I'll dig into the log when I get my hands on it, but otherwise the best I can see is that we need to burn the adds faster to get more time on the boss. And I just can't imagine that's the issue if pugs can do it.

And suggestions beyond what's already been posted? Our next raid is tomorrow night (Thursday), and I suspect we'll be right back into ICC to work on her again.
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Threatco » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:40 pm

I feel the same as you dirgen.

My guilds main group beat in in 3 tries, without much strategy and with the raid leader not knowing most the abilities. Just good players. My group was geared but semi pug. I consider my self a pretty effective raid leader but no amount of tweaking the strategy fixed the problem of adds gibbing dps and healers.

It seem like it is add getting loose and killing non tanks that causes wipes. We tried it with 3 and 4 tanks, nothing worked. Our best got the shield to about 50%. Quoting my post on last page as it has all my specific unanswered questions on it.

Can those buffs stack on an add?

Can non deformed/empowered adds get the resist shield?

We usualy wipe because an empowered adherent has a paladin tank on him. He throws up magic resist shield and or damage absorb shield, then the paladin cant keep threat over healers.

Or normal adds get a damage absorb shield and until that is down the tanks can't put threat on them, and they kill a healer or the first DPS to get a crit after the shield breaks.

I can only assume that adds killing healers means a tank problem. It's not the cleave damage, or the DnD damaage or random boss shadowbolts, it's the instant gibs from aggro.

How can tanks get threat on mobs with immunity (paladins rely on magic threat) or when they absorb damage. Or worse when a tank has to kite a deformed fanatic, and then adds spawn. Oh noes the tank is not in position!
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Epimer » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:27 am

Digren wrote:tank pov
hunter pov

  • We seemed low on DPS, but this was the same thing I felt on faction champions when we spent a few weeks wiping to them, and it turned out we had the kill order and crowd control methodology wrong
  • We had one person (Amadan, the top DPSer according to the DPS meter on the above hunter's screen) focused full time on Lady Deathwhisper, but it just wasn't enough. Others only got intermittent time on her between adds.


From the hunter PoV vid, the right hand side adds are going down way too slowly; in some cases you still have one or two up when the next wave spawns. Contrast this with your PoV vid where you've got time to make a sandwich in-between some of the add waves (which was closer to my experience on the same side as you on my guild kill). This suggests that DPS is low, although perhaps not in an absolute sense - more that you may have the left/right balance a bit off, or classes being assigned to a side which they are less suited for (as one is caster/physical/physical and the other is physical/caster/caster).

I'm fairly certain that on our kill we had several people dedicated to full time mana shield burn, and those people might be called on to assist on Empowered/whatever adds if we were getting a bit behind. And of course people would switch to the mana shield if their side was down and nothing nasty was still up.

I'm going to have to pester the guild into keeping regular logs of these things. Would be so much more use in compare/contrast situations than anecdotal evidence.
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Meloree » Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:02 am

Part the first: Reanimated Adds don't need to be kited. Only Deformed Fanatics need kiting.

As far as strategy goes, we split up the melee and hunters into two teams (left and right), and let all the casters spend most of their time on the boss. The back tank always drags his mob to one specific side, so the side teams are intentionally slightly unbalanced (normally with hunters who can adjust for imbalanced dps by turning around). For the side groups, the priority is Empowered Adherent > Reanimated Adherent > Adherent > Fanatic. For the caster group, dps priority is Deformed Fanatic > Reanimated Fanatic > Deathwhisper. Either way, the tanks on either side make a point of putting a skull up on any target that needs to be burned, along with a vent call like "Casters on Skull, Left side", or "Physical on Skull, Right side". Melee never swaps sides, unless their adds are all dead, so the call for Reanimated Adherents mostly applies to hunters.

We did a guild-sponsored alt/pug run with about 8 of our 3rd alts and some pugs, and got it down after about 5 tries, mostly in getting the pugs used to their targetting priorities (and getting them to stop standing in cleaves)

Remember that if you're falling behind, there's nothing preventing a "casters, help right side catch up" call on vent. Any given add only has ~200k hp, they should drop very quickly, if they're properly focussed by the side groups. Adherents shouldn't need tanking, make sure the tank is just keeping fanatics away from adherents to prevent melee cleave gibs. Shadowpriests/Afflocks should avoid multidotting, it's often wasted DPS, even if it gets them meter epeen. Adds heal up to full when they change forms, it's generally less productive than just more pewpew against the mana shield. At 4.5 minutes, the mana-shield needs to be down at 40% or less, or you're too far behind the enrage timer to have a chance.
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Digren » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:50 am

Meloree wrote:Part the first: Reanimated Adds don't need to be kited. Only Deformed Fanatics need kiting.

As far as strategy goes, we split up the melee and hunters into two teams (left and right), and let all the casters spend most of their time on the boss.

Yeah, I'm wrong in my post. It was the deformed that got pulled away for kiting.

How many of each type do you take on a raid? I think we use five melee and 9-10 ranged, with between 2 and 3 of those ranged as hunters. Is that more or fewer than you have?
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Blackharon » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:07 am

I'm curious - is there a reason why the adds cannot be tanked on top of the boss so that splash damage from the melee will help with the burning of the shields?

My guild tried this last night on our last attempt (after 8 or so wipes) and the shield got burnt down much much faster - however on the 2nd wave of adds the tank for the back one didn't pick it up soon enough and it ate 2-3 healers first...
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Chicken » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:35 pm

Blackharon wrote:I'm curious - is there a reason why the adds cannot be tanked on top of the boss so that splash damage from the melee will help with the burning of the shields?

My guild tried this last night on our last attempt (after 8 or so wipes) and the shield got burnt down much much faster - however on the 2nd wave of adds the tank for the back one didn't pick it up soon enough and it ate 2-3 healers first...
My guild switched to doing that as well this week since we're pretty melee (and hunter) heavy. Lady Deathwhisper has two convenient pillars which you can use to LoS pull the casters towards you, and with all 7 adds of a wave in one spot you can just AoE them down, and it also makes it easier for people to spot when there's a skeleton that's not strong to their type of damage.

The only downside, since you'll have more people in the same rough area since most of your raid should be moving to the platform Lady Deathwhisper is on, is that more people will need to move from Death and Decay whenever it gets cast. It does however cause the adds from each side to clump up in a nice 3 group formation when running to you, perfect for Avenger's Shield use.

The fact that our melee didn't have to run as much in addition to splash damage now hitting Lady Deathwhisper actually cut 2 minutes off of phase 1. It'll probably be less effective if you don't have the sheer amount of melee my guild does though.

Edit:

Since I see some confusion about adds above.

Fanatics (melee adds) can buff themselves to do extra damage, and heal them for 300% of the damage they do. This buff is spellstealable, purgable, etc., spellstealing will make it so your mages basically can't die. Lady Deathwhisper can also turn them into Deformed Fanatics, which move slow and hit hard but otherwise keep the same abilities. Alternatively Lady Deathwhisper can cause them to blow up through Dark Martyrdom, their reanimated version take heavily reduced physical damage, but otherwise keep the same abilities.

Adherents (caster adds) can cast a shield on themselves that absorbs 50k damage and deflects any spells cast on them, they also become interrupt immune while that shield is up; only way to break the shield is by DPSing it down, since it reflects your casters can't contribute with direct damage though, obviously DoTs that are still on the target will work, as will AoE. Lady Deathwhisper can Empower them, turning them into Empowered Fanatics, they become interrupt immune when they get this, and their spells will hit anyone in ~10 yards of the target. They can also get blown up by Lady Deathwhisper through Dark Martyrdom, their reanimated version takes heavily reduced magical damage, but is otherwise the same as a normal version of them.

Adds heal to full whenever Lady Deathwhisper transforms them, but you do keep your aggro on them. So as Paladin tank it's helpful to get a good bunch of aggro on the Adherents, as that way you won't be holding back your DPS in case it gets blown up and Reanimated. Adds also can't be transformed by her twice, only the "plain" adds get transformed, and yes, empowering an Adherent also counts as a transformation.
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Threatco » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:28 pm

Correct me if I am wrong.

Purge/dispell/spellsteal, This can be done on BOTH types of empowered adds (not the deformed ones) to remove the buff. This removes their self healing and absorb shield, and removes their extra damage, and the casters aoe. So this should happen ASAP so pretty much there is never an empowered add to deal with.

I think this is what was causing our raid deaths, the adherent's AoE when they get empowered.

Otherwise Deformed adds are only special in that they take greatly reduced damage of their type, and need the opposite to burn them down, they do extra damage but no new abilities.

Is this all correct?
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Chicken » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:23 am

Not entirely. You can't purge away the transformation or the absorb shield. You can purge away the healing from the Fanatics though.

Deformed adds take full damage from everything, and only Fanatics can get Deformed: These are the adds that become slow but hit very hard. Animated adds take less damage of their type.

Or to summarize...

Adherents:
- Can cast Shroud of the Occult on themselves, absorbs 50k damage and makes them reflect spells while it's up. Can only be removed by dealing 50k damage to them. They usually cast this very quicly after being either Empowered or Animated, but will also cast this as plain adds if given the chance.
- Can get Empowered (Turns them bigger and gives them shadow form), which makes their spells hit harder, and hit everyone in 10 yards around the target it hits.
- When Animated (Turns them into a skeleton), become strong to magical attacks.

Fanatics:
- Can cast Vampiric Might on themselves, causing them to hit 25% harder and heal themselves for 300% of damage dealt. Can (and should!) be removed with purge, dispel magic and spellsteal.
- Use Shadow Cleave, make sure to position them so that only the tank is in front of them.
- Can get Deformed (Turns them into big zombie like guys), making them hit much harder but causing them to move slower.
- When Animated (Turns them into a skeleton), become strong to physical attacks.

It's also the case that if you kill the plain adds faster, you'll get less Empowered, Deformed and Animated adds. While it's tempting to kill the special adds first, you're better off getting all the plain adds down first, if you kill them quick enough you'll usually only get a single special add per add wave, which is fairly easy to handle.

Animated adds should just be burned down by the type of DPS they aren't strong to. Deformed adds should be gotten away from the tanks through Distracting Shot or a Holy Paladin taunting. Empowered adds can also be made much less dangerous by having a Holy Paladin who is standing a good distance away from everyone else taunt them.
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Epimer » Fri Dec 18, 2009 7:42 am

Chicken wrote:Adherents (caster adds) can cast a shield on themselves that absorbs 50k damage and deflects any spells cast on them, they also become interrupt immune while that shield is up;


Yeah, trying to "help out" with interrupts by throwing a HoJ at an Adherent you haven't noticed has a shield up while you're still tanking melee adds is a really fantastically embarassing way to wipe a raid.

Hypothetically, of course :oops:

-

It's a pretty general point, but good raid-wide communication in this fight is really key. People need to be calling out Deformed/Empowered adds. People need to be able to quickly respond to a call to switch the side they're DPSing on, or to come off the boss temporarily to burn down adds. Our second kill last night was a bit messy in places but never fell apart because the RL was really on the ball with assigning people to switch targets as soon as it was needed.
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Doxa » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:54 am

My charter is having some serious issues with this encounter and I'd like to ask for some advice. I think we've got about 4 hours into it so far and have (on our best attempts) got her shield to around 25%.

We're running 3 tanks, 6 healers and dps split evenly between melee and ranged.

On each side I'm assigning 1 tank and 4 melee DPS (with 1 tank on the stairs picking up the back Cultist).

I've been keeping my ranged people on Deathwhisper unless there is a specific reason to pull them off her (such as a Reanimated Fanatic or Deformed).

The largest issue we encounter right now is getting over-run by the adds. The first 2-3 spawns go great. But then they just aren't dying fast enough, new adds spawn and I (and the other tank) can't keep up. Moving on the 2-Fanatic side really sucks cause my melee tends to get cleaved if I move them to pick up the next spawning group.

So, my question is 1) how many ranged people are you assigning permanently to Deathwhisper and 2) how many people are you keeping on the adds until they are dead?

I'm thinking at this point that I should have only 2 or so on Deathwhisper and then let the other ranged people switch to her when all the adds are dead.

Thanks in advance!
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Rickter » Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:54 am

This was really the most difficult boss for us to get down, but now we've got it we have steamrolled it the last 2 times running it in our 10 and 25 man groups. Here's our setup

We run 2 tanks (2xPally, or 1pally/1druid or warrior). 1 Pally on left side for the 2xmelee and 1 caster mob. And either the other pally or other tank on the 2xcaster/1melee side.
We DO NOT have a tank for the back add. We have a hunter MD to the 2xcaster tank. If raid makeup permits (which it usually has) we'll put a DK on the 2xcaster tank side to help with DG if needed to grab back in case of SHTF aggro problems or to round in the 2nd caster if necessary.

We put 1-2 melee sitting on boss the whole time depending on melee heavy or not. Each side we assign 2-3 melee, again depending on side. The tanks MUST be sure to face fanatics away from melee. When you get a reanimated fanatic, mark it and have all ranged switch. If you get a deformed, mark it and kite a pre-determined path (back of room to front of room for us every time so healers are aware).

Other than that blow up the adds, when her mana is around 7% check timer on adds if it's within about 15s STOP dps on boss and clear next trash wave before releasing her. Upon release 1 tank pick up boss, rofl stomp her until the 3 debuff is applied, tank swap, rinse and repeat.
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Digren » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:06 am

Using suggestions from this thread, our 25-man tried her again last night. We switched to the suggested strategy of pulling all the mobs to her; both left and right melee adds (and all resurrected and other adds) are dragged to the stairs in front of Lady Deathwhisper for AOE. Melee for the most part can stay next to her and only switch to adds when they are present.

We had two death knights to yank casters into the same pile, and used hunters to knock out the third caster that we couldn't yank, plus caster adds that came in from the back.

Our first attempt with this strat, where we really didn't know how to position, was better than our best attempt last week. :P We wiped in 2.5 minutes but had her shield down to 75%, while last week our best attempt was a wipe after 5 minutes with the shield at 80%.

We progressively got better as we worked on the encounter. Our next-to-last attempt was best, with a wipe after 5 minutes with her shield at 35%. What eventually overwhelmed us was the resurrected adds. There would be 3-4 of them up, and I'd have to run out to grab and bring back my next set of regular adds. Eventually there were just too many and I lost one which tore through the clothies, and/or they stacked up too deep on me and I'd die.

(I filmed our last attempt of the night, but it was comically bad, so I don't have a video to post this week.)

Anyway, thank you all for the strat help. I very much prefer this method even if it slowed us down a bit to start over, because once we kill her, we'll use the winning strat forever. This way should always be faster so we'll save a lot of time long term. :)
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Re: [25]Lady Deathwhisper

Postby Digren » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:08 am

Oh, and it comforts me to see that we're not alone in struggling on this. When we were wiping to faction champions and no one else was, I felt very isolated.
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