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Threat Issues

Postby sysreq » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:43 am

Hi,

This is my first post so go easy on me.

I have recently re-specced to Prot to try out tanking and in general it has been going well. I started out with a set of tempered saronite and I am slowly replacing it with badge or ToC HC gear.

http://armory.wow-europe.com/character- ... r&n=Lealoo

In general I don't have issues with threat on most bosses, I taunt with HoR, then start on the standard rotation. If someone's threat gets too high I can normally pull the boss back with HoR and carry on.

Where I'm having issues is with the trash, I am generally pugging heroics with groups who's gear scores are around 4250-4750 mine is just under 4000 (I know GS isn't the best judge, but it does give a quick check). For example last night in Gundrak, I mark skull and cross and then pull and before I can get into my rotation I have lost aggro and I have to run round trying to pick the mobs backup again.

I think it might be because the ranged dps were doing AoE spells which were hitting all 3 rather than focusing on the marked target. Is there something I should be doing differently or is it the DPS fault in not holding back?

Any ideas or suggestions?
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:54 am

Well if you are having to use HoR on bosses, then your boss threat isn't high enough either. I'd start be reading some of the guides here, and make sure you understand the 969 rotation for threat.

To the specific problem of someone getting aggro before the mobs get to you, that's just bad play on their part. I mean you can possibly tweak things, like have a consecration down for the mobs to run through, judge a mob that your avenger's shield didn't hit, and have HotR at the ready, but you just aren't going to be able to hold aggro on every mob during the pull if your DPS are nuking while you are rounding them up.
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby TheRenaissanceMan » Thu Nov 26, 2009 1:50 pm

To an extent, it is the DPS' fault for pulling aggro, however, as you are relatively undergeared, if you're going to insist on running with DPS who outgear you by that sort of margin, than that's something that's going to happen with even some of the most disciplined DPS.

If you have a hunter or rogue in your party, ensure that they're using misdirect and tricks of the trade liberally. Ensure that targets are marked, and remind the DPS at the begining of the run to follow the established kill order.

Beyond that, it's all on you. You need to be on top of your threat rotation and positioning. Never let the mobs get behind you, because then they'll be missing out on your HotR and Holy Shield AoE threat. Do not be afraid to taunt mobs back. Open with Hammer of the Righteous as soon as the pull is within melee range for snap aggro on all targets.

If the DPS are pulling mobs before they get to you, then one thing to consider for 5 man trash pulls is actually initiating the pull with a body pull, so that once you've pulled, the mobs are already in range of all of your attacks. This is situational though, and while it will work for most heroic trash, I would not recommend attempting it unless you have a fully fleshed out picture of the pathing of all nearby mobs to avoid accidently pulling other mobs.
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby Arcand » Fri Nov 27, 2009 10:08 am

Don't keep tanking target A until it falls to the floor.
When it gets to 10-30% (this depends on your DPS - whenever you're confident that if it broke off you it'd die before it could reach the next guy on the threat table) switch to target B and start running up threat. At your discretion, stun target A before switching.
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby inthedrops » Mon Dec 07, 2009 7:58 am

Don't pull with taunt as part of every pull. Taunt duration is EXTREMELY short and the amount of threat it generates is not very much. I mean, it's "nice" to have a ranged pull ability besides shield but I dislike that approach from most "tanks" that I see doing that because usually the tank sucks and doesn't seem to realize the taunt wears off, and the mob heads over towards the healer or the dps who isn't paying attention.

In fact, it's not necessary to pull with shield either although most tanks seem to. It takes a lot of mana. I prefer to use that mana for the next pull (also without shield if possible)

You can try these changes/suggestions if you're comfortable with them.
1. Pull by running in and using Hammer. This will usually get three mobs on you right away. However BE PATIENT. If you have to wait an extra second for that third mob to be in range for your hammer then do so.
2. Drop consecrate if your mana allows.
3. Figure out if there are any ranged mobs that you haven't touched yet. If they're close, run a few yards over and judge or ShoR them.
4. If it's not close, throw your shield to silence it and get him to come to you.
5. Any mobs that you see running away which you missed, NOW is the time to use your taunt to get them onto you.

Remember that Taunt is not on the global cooldown so you can press it anytime it's up. You'll need to be comfortable/skilled with quickly targeting "loose" mobs for taunt. If you rely on tab target or aren't good at "looking around to see what's going on" then this approach might result in problems for you.

By only using shield when necessary, and prioritizing it towards ranged/casters who can be silenced you not only save mana but you also gain a lot of control.

The only thing to watch out for with this method is that sometimes due to lag you need to adjust your position during the pull so that your hammer hits. Sometimes they walk right past you so you need to turn around, etc. Just listen for the "BONG" and try to see which mobs it didn't hit and judge/ShoR that one.
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby Grehn|Skipjack » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:12 am

I'd say taunt generates a pretty decent amount of threat. Mine does about as much damage to a single target as AS does, is on a fairly short CD, and costs very little mana, comparatively. If you don't foresee needing it 8(6) seconds into the pull, there's nothing wrong with tagging the group as you run in.
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby inthedrops » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:53 am

Grehn|Skipjack wrote:I'd say taunt generates a pretty decent amount of threat. Mine does about as much damage to a single target as AS does, is on a fairly short CD, and costs very little mana, comparatively. If you don't foresee needing it 8(6) seconds into the pull, there's nothing wrong with tagging the group as you run in.


You're certainly right.

In a heroic setting with impatient DPS here's how things play out and why I don't recommend it. It's not an issue if DPS is smart and mobs are marked (like the OP does) but in the cases it's not here's what happens:

00:00 Tank taunts some target to initiate pull (almost always the closest mob). DPS notice his target and assume it's the first kill target.
00:01 Tank takes a second or two to get into range of the mobs in order to build threat. Gets a hammer off (if they're smart) or drops consecrate (for terrible snap agro), both of which may or may not be on the initial taunt target.
00:02 DPS also starts casting/wailing away on the initial taunt target because "the tank is in range and we're impatient".
00:03 Taunt duration wears off.

It's in the next second or two where if the tank didn't build additional threat that the problem happens. And now as a tank you're spending more time getting things back in control than just doing your rotations.

I guess it's unfair for me to judge so harshly. But when I run heroics with other paladin tanks who always pull with taunt they seem to be the ones who end up being terrible. So I guess I'm bashing taunt pulls unfairly, I mean, I do use it a lot especially for grabbing single target mobs. But I also don't mark and pug a LOT.

Meh, I guess it's just personal preference :) Just make sure to build some more threat on that taunt target please!
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby phaqueue » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:35 am

Here's the thing... pulling with taunt is a good thing if you know what you're doing...

my usual heroic pull consists of:

Taunt one mob, immediately follow with Avenger's Shield as I get close (don't want them dazed far away - people will get impatient) then hit with HotR...
Part of the reason for this is that taunt does damage when the mob isn't targeting you - AS does it all the time... better to grab some "free" damage off the pull, it's really not costing you anything except a little time (pretty sure it's even off the GCD - since it's a taunt - but please correct me if I'm wrong here)

if I don't have enough aggro by then to hold of an impatient DPS - I'm doing something wrong - like don't have RF up or missed with an ability... from that point on - make sure consecration is down,and make sure that you're hammering when you can...

for trash in heroics - rotation is still good -but not make or break... it's more important to keep aggro on the mobs - so if you're skipping a judgement or shield slam in order to hammer all of them - sometimes that's needed - and not a horrible thing...

gneerally the mobs will die too fast for a "real" rotation anyways - so just make sure they are hitting you...

the other reason you can afford to pull with hand of reckoning is that you have a 2nd taunt if you need... if some overzealous DPS pulls aggro - you can always taunt off them with this - with the exceptionally short cooldown of our single-target taunt, and the fact that we have a 2nd one... we should really never have a problem where we can't taunt enough - if so - something else is wrong...

Hope this helps...

also - if people are pulling off you that fast - are you sure you had Righteous Fury up? I know it's something I still forget every so often (usually when I switch specs inside the instance)
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:37 am

There's no need to skip anything to hammer on cd because the 969 already uses the hammer on cd...so I don't see your point on that. Noo, what REALLY takes us off our rotation is picking up aditional mobs on the fly.
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby Levantine » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:51 am

Sometimes I have to skip Consecration because apparently normals really ARE tuned for offspec tanks, not onspec tanks actually wearing tank gear and I run oom. Then I get confused about the cooldowns and hit Holy Shield and Judgement early cause I'm bored not pushing buttons. I totally need to train myself to use clcRet better. >:
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby Alpha » Wed Dec 16, 2009 4:29 am

The solution is: BE FASTER THAN YOUR DPS!

If you've pulled 3 extra groups before they're finished with the first one, you got a head start.

First of all - don't mark, don't CC, don't be afraid to pull the entire room.
Required to do this is:
- Hotkey all your abilities
- Pursuit of Justice talent
- Using your cooldowns.
- Getting to a new group before the first pack is dead.

My usual tactic:
I get to the instance, greet everyone (new cross-realm tool), buff up and immediatly start pulling, don't ask, just do. Since they're a bit slow to notice me already going, I'll just pull the next group while they're busy as well. Oh, and when the healer is running towards you - time to pull an additional group. And that's how I continue. Just do either avenger's shield, HotR or consecration or pop a bomb if you're engineer like me (highly recommended!)

The only thing that matters is that you keep pulling. Even had to spec tank on my boomkin, since I was always the one pulling, because of slow tanks...

Don't give them time to think 'hey, this is moving slow, I'm impatient, I'll pull!'

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Re: Threat Issues

Postby phaqueue » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:09 pm

I have a macro for this for when I start the run... it reads something along the lines of:

/p I pull fast, please keep up
/p if you are a DK, feel free to death grip casters for me, I'll taunt them for you...
/p If you have a knockback or frost nova, don't use it
/p if you run ahead and pull something on your own, you can tank it too... good luck


I spam this and start pulling - if they don't keep up - they get removed or leave... most people are extremely happy with this, as they just want to get done with the instance and move on to another/something else
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby kaanman36 » Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:50 am

Levantine wrote:I totally need to train myself to use clcRet better. >:


I'm not trying to be an ass or anything, but maybe learn choose your spells without an addon telling you which one to cast?

clcRet is great for Ret...I can't stand it for Prot. It annoys the hell out of me so much so, that I disable the addon when tanking.
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby theckhd » Tue Dec 22, 2009 2:11 pm

kaanman36 wrote:clcRet is great for Ret...I can't stand it for Prot. It annoys the hell out of me so much so, that I disable the addon when tanking.

I like it for Ret, but I also turn it off for Prot. I have empirically determined that I'm smarter than it is as far as choosing tanking abilities, but not so for Ret. :P

But I can see it being an excellent training tool for new paladins who have to get used to the rotation.
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Re: Threat Issues

Postby Kelaan » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:49 pm

inthedrops wrote:In a heroic setting with impatient DPS here's how things play out and why I don't recommend it. It's not an issue if DPS is smart and mobs are marked (like the OP does) but in the cases it's not here's what happens....

00:00 Tank taunts some target to initiate pull (almost always the closest mob). DPS notice his target and assume it's the first kill target.
00:01 Tank takes a second or two to get into range of the mobs in order to build threat. Gets a hammer off (if they're smart) or drops consecrate (for terrible snap agro), both of which may or may not be on the initial taunt target.
00:02 DPS also starts casting/wailing away on the initial taunt target because "the tank is in range and we're impatient".
00:03 Taunt duration wears off.


Taunt->Shield Toss->Hammer->Judge/ShoR, potentially on different targets, seems to work really well for me. Taunt+ShieldToss is a fairly large burst threat amount, and since you're running in already anyways, you're likely in range to hit (with hammer, judgement, and shield) before anyone else, too. That + SoCommand's cleaves seems to work very well for me.
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